Dual forestays, tension and sailplan.

[Jim Cate]

Hi Matt,

At the risk of starting an on board war, I will support your thoughts of a furler on the staysail, and using it partly rolled up as a storm jib. It likely would mean having a luff pad on the sail and having it constructed of heavy enough material to withstand strong winds and perhaps less than ideal shape and stress distribution when reefed.

As you know Insatiable II is a fractional Solent rig, and we have a furler on both foresails... and I like this setup. We do use the Solent partly furled at times, but in heavy going mostly use the triple reefed main alone... works ok on our boat, dunno about Manera under main alone.

Realistically, in such heavy conditions that you need the storm jib, getting to windward is pretty difficult. So it is likely that you would be off the wind a bit if not motor sailing, and the reefed staysail's poor shape won't be a big issue. Being able to access that sail via furlers IS a big issue IMO... thus my support for your furler plan.

I don't know if your current staysail would be well adapted to this use, a chat with a sailmaker might be in order re adding a luff pad and suitable luff tape.

Happy to discuss further...

Jim

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

...
At the risk of starting an on board war, I will support your thoughts of a furler on the staysail, and using it partly rolled up as a storm jib.
...

Thank you Jim, I value your opinion on this one.

I will find a moment to run it past my wonderful sailmaker, SVTotem. He supplied the staysail as a hank-on, as per my specification, but he also specified a good solid sailcloth, so it may well be suitable. I have the foam luff tape stuff on the yankee and it works surprisingly well in keeping the sail shape as it is furled, though I have never had the need to sail with it that way.

Getting around the decks on Manera is much easier than most boats, but I do prefer not to be wandering around forward wrestling sails, particularly in bad weather.

[Breaking Waves]

I sailed a boat rigged like this RTW.

Two parallel head stays - one with a furler + one hank-on, plus a staysail stay hank-on.

We kept a pretty general purpose 120% on the furler. For the hank on stay we had an 88% yankee, and a 110% 'twin' obviously not an exact twin but we got used and was close enough) and a light reacher. We would normally sail with the Yankee hanked on and bagged, it was an awesome strong wind jib and had a versatile wind range when considering adding or subtracting the staysails - and switch to one of the other two sails in the occasions when they were used.

For the staysail stay we had a big one and a little one. Usually had the big one hanked on, and only switched to the little one if we expected extended storm jib type winds.

I liked the rig - lots of options.

The parallel headstays were much more common 'back in the day' - great for downwind, but also made for easier changes up and down. I believe Eric (Hiscock) used double parallel headstays, if I remember correctly.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I sailed a boat rigged like this RTW.

Two parallel head stays - one with a furler + one hank-on, plus a staysail stay hank-on.

We kept a pretty general purpose 120% on the furler. For the hank on stay we had an 88% yankee, and a 110% 'twin' obviously not an exact twin but we got used and was close enough) and a light reacher. We would normally sail with the Yankee hanked on and bagged, it was an awesome strong wind jib and had a versatile wind range when considering adding or subtracting the staysails - and switch to one of the other two sails in the occasions when they were used.

For the staysail stay we had a big one and a little one. Usually had the big one hanked on, and only switched to the little one if we expected extended storm jib type winds.

I liked the rig - lots of options.

The parallel headstays were much more common 'back in the day' - great for downwind, but also made for easier changes up and down. I believe Eric (Hiscock) used double parallel headstays, if I remember correctly.

Some great sail combination ideas there, thank you.

My boat came with a high cut reacher on the furler, but I found that it was not as good as the yankee/staysail combo when it came to actually driving the boat forward, and the helm balance was not as good either.

I am thinking of having hanks put on the reacher to use it in combo with the yankee as a downwind rig, did you ever do something like that? (I think it is called a twizzle rig?)

[HankOnthewater]

Gilow, as per Jim's comments, I have a similar rig (solent, with stays not parallel). Both the front stay and the inner forestay (for solent sail) are on furlers. They are at deck level approx 90 cm ( 3 ft) apart.
The frontstay has a large genoa (?130-140%) and solent jib close to 100%. The latter has a flatter cut and heavier material (10 or 11 oz).
I use the larger genoa in winds up to 20 knots, or up to 15 knots when close hauled. I hardly ever use the genoa in a furled manner.
In all other cases I uses the inner /solent jib. This has also a foam pad along the luff. I can sail to windward (eh.... sort of.... ie 60 degree to true wind) in 40 knots of wind, with this sail partly furled.
I have no storm jib.

So far, the above setup worked well for me. No need to go on the foredeck, assuming the furlers keep on working well.

The only drawback is on day-sails with little wind, where the genoa needs to be rolled up before tacking or gybing, and then rolled out again.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by GILow

(I think it is called a twizzle rig?)

We never specifically used the twizzle hardware set-up. Most long distance folks when we started cruising had twin poles - it was a signature of a ‘blue water boat’ back then (along with a wind vane). We were somewhat unusual, only ever had one pole on our boats, occasionally (but not that frequently) used the boom prevented out as an extra pole, more typically we just sailed with the pole side slightly by the Lee to keep the non-poled headsail full. Worked well enough for us we never got a 2nd pole.

But we have used all sorts of double headsail downwind combinations. Sailing north from St Helena in like 8kt very stable winds I vividly remember having an mps (flattish cruising chute on sock) to one side and the Hank on reacher poled to other side (that side slight by Lee to make sure mps stayed full).

At the other end, we have run with storm jib to one side, and like 3 feet of furled jib unfurled (and poled out) - in strong downwind. Having sail area forward on both sides balances the boat and makes it run straighter in strong winds/waves.

[Bill O]

Watching the thread w/ interest. While we don't have the dual headsails out on our bow sprit (yet), I'm sure it will happen.
We currently have high cut genoa on a furler and a removable inner stay w/separate hank on staysail and storm jib.
My biggest issue is getting the tension correctly set on the inner stay to reduce the luff sag on the staysail so it doesn't remove too much tension on the forestay causing more luff sag on the genoa furler. At this time it is a compromise of tension if we want to run as a cutter and can easily tension the removable inner stay when we need the staysail only. If we switch to a furler for the staysail, it will not be as easy to adjust the tension on the inner stay when we need/want less luff sag as we can w/the removable.

We do furl our genoa and think the rope luff (vs. foam) holds a very good shape when furled and if we went to a furler on the inner stay would also want the rope luff on the staysail.
How do people deal w/the tension issue between the 2 furlers in higher winds to reduce luff sag on the staysail (just using the staysail)? Just live w/the sag and say it's an ok compromise?


Bill O.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Watching the thread w/ interest. While we don't have the dual headsails out on our bow sprit (yet), I'm sure it will happen.
We currently have high cut genoa on a furler and a removable inner stay w/separate hank on staysail and storm jib.
My biggest issue is getting the tension correctly set on the inner stay to reduce the luff sag on the staysail so it doesn't remove too much tension on the forestay causing more luff sag on the genoa furler. At this time it is a compromise of tension if we want to run as a cutter and can easily tension the removable inner stay when we need the staysail only. If we switch to a furler for the staysail, it will not be as easy to adjust the tension on the inner stay when we need/want less luff sag as we can w/the removable.

We do furl our genoa and think the rope luff (vs. foam) holds a very good shape when furled and if we went to a furler on the inner stay would also want the rope luff on the staysail.
How do people deal w/the tension issue between the 2 furlers in higher winds to reduce luff sag on the staysail (just using the staysail)? Just live w/the sag and say it's an ok compromise?


Bill O.

Bill, am I right in reading this as you having a solent rig, rather than a traditional cutter?

I ask because tension for the staysail on my cutter rig comes from running backstays that meet the mast at the same place as the staysail stay (about 20% of the way down from the top of the mast), so I don't have the problem you describe, although I do leave the forward of the two parallel forestays slightly loose compared to the aft forestay which has the furler on it. My logic being I would not expect to use the forward stay except for either very deep reaching or running downwind.


Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

We never specifically used the twizzle hardware set-up. Most long distance folks when we started cruising had twin poles - it was a signature of a ‘blue water boat’ back then (along with a wind vane). We were somewhat unusual, only ever had one pole on our boats, occasionally (but not that frequently) used the boom prevented out as an extra pole, more typically we just sailed with the pole side slightly by the Lee to keep the non-poled headsail full. Worked well enough for us we never got a 2nd pole.

But we have used all sorts of double headsail downwind combinations. Sailing north from St Helena in like 8kt very stable winds I vividly remember having an mps (flattish cruising chute on sock) to one side and the Hank on reacher poled to other side (that side slight by Lee to make sure mps stayed full).

At the other end, we have run with storm jib to one side, and like 3 feet of furled jib unfurled (and poled out) - in strong downwind. Having sail area forward on both sides balances the boat and makes it run straighter in strong winds/waves.

That's interesting, my boat came with twin poles, although one of them was a reaching strut. In the interests of simplicity, I decided to get rid of the reaching strut, I may regret this later. (It also came with an asym (MPS) which died last year, but I am planning to replace it because it was terrific for the boat.)

Like you, I assume I would choose a course that allowed me to pole out only one sail, with the high cut reacher on the forward stay and the yankee on the furler.

Looking forward to seeing how this works.

Hadn't considered BOTH the asym and another foreward sail... but I sail solo so I guess I have probably been thinking mostly of what I can safely handle. I used to pull down all other sails, including the main, when running the asym.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by GILow

Bill, am I right in reading this as you having a solent rig, rather than a traditional cutter?

I ask because tension for the staysail on my cutter rig comes from running backstays that meet the mast at the same place as the staysail stay (about 20% of the way down from the top of the mast), so I don't have the problem you describe, although I do leave the forward of the two parallel forestays slightly loose compared to the aft forestay which has the furler on it. My logic being I would not expect to use the forward stay except for either very deep reaching or running downwind.


Matt

Matt,
At this point we do have a traditional cutter rig on the foredeck (ketch, no solent) w/running backs. Our mast is stout and if you take up to much tension on the inner stay (w/runners on) the forestay loosens slightly but enough to cause more luff sag for any efficient upwind work. Because we have the removable inner stay, its a bit easier to specifically tighten inner if we need to do upwind work in heavier air (staysail only, no reefed headsail).
Have no problem adjusting the inner at this point, but if we change to a furler for the staysail, I suspect I will lose that ability to easily tension the inner and need to live w/a compromise luff sag in both just to have the 2nd furler.
The question really is for someone who has the staysail furler and is this compromise of stay tension a reality?


Bill O.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Bill O

..if you take up to much tension on the inner stay (w/runners on) the forestay loosens slightly...

How very strange. I will have to see if the same happens on my boat. I cannot imagine why this would happen, I see the runners as balancing the staysail tension in a way that should not affect any other part of the rig, but maybe I have missed something.

Can't comment on the specifics of getting adquate tension on the staysail furler stay yet, but should be able to do so soon because I am about to fit one. (It is currently sitting in the driveway, waiting on my attention.)

[Jim Cate]

Bill, would adding tension in the backstay not restore the tension in the forestay? That is, with the runner tight.

Jim

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Have no problem adjusting the inner at this point, but if we change to a furler for the staysail, I suspect I will lose that ability to easily tension the inner and need to live w/a compromise luff sag in both just to have the 2nd furler.
The question really is for someone who has the staysail furler and is this compromise of stay tension a reality?

I dinnae have a furler on my forestay, because Led Myne is a traditional cutter with a headstay and forestay (on which she carries a hanked on staysail).

Having said that, I'll take a stab at the problem:

1. The problem exists because sailmakers, riggers, and those working on the physics and performance of triangular sails flown afore the mast have concentrated almost entirely on sloops, not cutters, for the past century or so.

2. The theory is that a sailmaker cuts a triangular sail (to be flown afore the mast) with a luff curve that suits the sag in the stay on which the sail is flown. The rule of thumb varies a little from sailmaker to sailmaker partly because of differences in what rigging experts say. But the common ground is that the sailmaker assumes that the stay is made of wire rope tensioned to somewhere in the 10 - 14% of working strength (within the elastic range). That tension is necessary for satisfactory performance going to weather.

3. Not many cutters are designed or built to have a tension of 10-14% of working strength in their forestay. But they are designed and built to have a tension of 10-14% of working strength in their headstay (which carries a jib, a jib topsail, a genoa, a yankee ... etc, whether hanked on to the headstay or set to groove in a foil). The cutter is usually built to have a tension in the forestay (the stay carrying the staysail) of about 5% of the working strength of the wire.

To carry more than 5% tension in the forestay needs:

(a) more displacement (more material) built into the foredeck so it can bear the higher wire tension; and

(b) more displacement (more material) in the mast and in running or fixed backstay(s) and/or in aft intermediate stays to balance the forestay tension and maintain the desired mast curve.

Since more displacement costs money and a time penalty, few boats were built that way historically. Particularly with a plastic bucket of a boat (i.e. a GRP hull and deck as on Led Myne), it's clear that increasing the wire tension in the forestay from 5% to 12% is reversible - it's within the elastic range of the steel wire, so releasing the tension from 12% to 5% has not changed the length of the wire. But it's less clear what happens to the GRP deck: the elastic limits of a GRP deck are not well known and cranking on tension may change permanently the camber of a GRP deck.

4. A staysail cut to suit the sag of a 5% tensioned forestay works well in cutter mode. (and so the owner of a traditional cutter need to discuss with a sailmaker to ensure the sailmaker understands a cutter rig and does not misunderstand that the sail will be used on a stay with 10-14% tension).

5. When a cutter rig is reefed down (i.e. the headsail dowsed and the staysail becoming the source of drive and balancing a reefed mainsail), the traditional cutter sailor has two or three options:

(a) ignore the issue, because it's in the context of high winds and no sensible person is aiming to sail harder than a close reach in those conditions;

(b) temporarily increase the tension in the forestay to something in the 10 - 14% range (and care less about what that does to the shape of the mast, which is anyway carrying a reefed mainsail); or

(c) solve the problem by increasing halyard tension in the staysail halyard (and leaving the forestay tension at 5% of its elastic working strength).

That solution, namely 5c, is what I and all cutter sailors I know, do. As far as I can see, managing the location of the maximum draft of the sail can be done with adjusting halyard tension whether the sail is run in a groove of a roller-furler foil or hanked onto a stay.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

As far as I can see, managing the location of the maximum draft of the sail can be done with adjusting halyard tension whether the sail is run in a groove of a roller-furler foil or hanked onto a stay.

I ought have written: "As far as I can see, managing the luff sag of the staysail and the location of maximum draft of the staysail can be done by adjusting halyard tension whether the sail is run in a groove of a roller-furler foil or hanked onto a stay."

[Bill O]

Alan,
Good suggestions to increase the staysail halyard tension makes sense and possibly a little bit more backstay tension may be helpful in certain situations. We do not have a bendy mast (at all) in our old school traditionally rigged ketch and we do try to get some performance out of the old girl when we can. Wish I had a hydraulic backstay at times just to easily put a small amount more tension (just a dream).
Have 5" of luff sag built into the high cut genoa, which appears to increase slightly in heavy air w/the staysail in play. We have a 6' heavily built aluminum bow sprit (supposedly properly tuned) and sometimes think this is another factor in keeping the fore stay tension in this set up. Don't "see" any movement in the bowsprit under these conditions. The inner stay goes to the original hull bow stem and no flex there.


Bill O.