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Old 25-07-2012, 15:22   #31
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
You cannot furl a code zero "like a regular roller furling" as they are built with a free flying luff, with or without an anti-torsion rope for use with a foil-less furler. Now you could build a similar sail with luff tape for use with a furler but that's not the standard. For a Catana catamaran we built a gennaker with luff tape because it was set up for use with a furler. That changes the nature and performance of the sail. That was a fun project as we used some material left over from the VOR 70 Ericcson.
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Old 25-07-2012, 15:59   #32
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I'm looking for a light wind cruising head sail that can be used more to windward than my asymmetrical. If it also can be used broad reaching that would be great!
That, ahem, would be a reacher.
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Old 25-07-2012, 16:27   #33
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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That, ahem, would be a reacher.
Bash,

One can draw a distinction between the angles a sail is optimized for and the angles at which it can be used.

For example, what is the wind angle range of a working jib?
Well we can fly that sail on anything from close hauled to dead downwind, correct?

Will it be efficient throughout the range? No. Will it work? Yes?

This gentleman is looking for a cruising sail that is versatile. That he can easily have. And just as in my example of the working jib, he will have some wind angles at which another type of sail would be more efficient, however he will likely be perfectly content with one light air cruising sail that works well throughout a wide range as opposed to carrying more sails and having to change from one to the other more often.
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Old 25-07-2012, 18:23   #34
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

We have one in 1.6 nylon.

It is an excellent sail.

We use it close reaching (light winds only) to broad reaching (must bear off in a puff ...). It is no good for broad reach/run (unless you have a sleek boat that will accelerate and build plenty of apparent).

Now I want something 'Code-Zero/-like' to fill up the gap when close hauled/close reaching in light winds and 'flat' seas.

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Old 25-07-2012, 18:57   #35
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

Now I want something 'Code-Zero/-like' to fill up the gap when close hauled/close reaching in light winds and 'flat' seas.

b.

But Doyle described the UPS to me as a Code Zero for cruisers, but you still want a Code Zero?

It is interesting that I have 2 other quotes for similar sails for the concepts, using 2.1 & 2.5 oz nylon instead of the super material Doyle wants to use. When I asked them about the material and my worry that it is too flimsy Doyle said they could change it to 1.5 oz nylon (for less money).

I thought this would be easier.
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Old 26-07-2012, 01:00   #36
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
But Doyle described the UPS to me as a Code Zero for cruisers, but you still want a Code Zero?

It is interesting that I have 2 other quotes for similar sails for the concepts, using 2.1 & 2.5 oz nylon instead of the super material Doyle wants to use. When I asked them about the material and my worry that it is too flimsy Doyle said they could change it to 1.5 oz nylon (for less money).

I thought this would be easier.
The UPS is similar to our CLASS from what I've seen. It has the roach without the need for battens. It's hard to nail down a wind angle range as there's a lot of variable from boat to boat. You need luff tension to sail closewinded so a 2:1 up top and friction block on the lower swivel come in handy.
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Old 26-07-2012, 05:08   #37
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
The UPS is similar to our CLASS from what I've seen. It has the roach without the need for battens. It's hard to nail down a wind angle range as there's a lot of variable from boat to boat. You need luff tension to sail closewinded so a 2:1 up top and friction block on the lower swivel come in handy.
Battens? We are talking head sails, are battens being put in them now?

You know you keep referring to this CLASS, but don't post any links to it etc. I couldn't find anything about CLASS on your website. Of course I only know that site because I have a sail quote with a link.
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Old 26-07-2012, 06:03   #38
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

Don, for years Doyle only made that sail in 1.5oz nylon. The laminate is new. Ours is made in nylon and works fine. Unless you are really looking for that very extra edge, I don't think you need to spend the money on a laminate construction. For cruising in light winds, it just won't make a difference to you and the maintenance and storage of the nylon type will be easier.

Islandplanet is correct about luff tension. This sail is useful for close reaching, but the luff needs to be very tight. Also, if you are putting it on a furler, the luff needs to be very tight to furl well. We have no problem using a single 1:1 purchase and no friction block, but you will need a halyard winch to get it tight enough.

If you are planning on a furler, have them put in a torsion rope instead of the normal doubled vectran luff rope. This works much better for furling.

You think this is difficult so far? Your next step is choosing colors and patterns - that's hard!

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Old 26-07-2012, 09:51   #39
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Battens? We are talking head sails, are battens being put in them now?

You know you keep referring to this CLASS, but don't post any links to it etc. I couldn't find anything about CLASS on your website. Of course I only know that site because I have a sail quote with a link.
Don,

Headsails have had battens in them for years. We routinely build non-overlapping racing headsails with leech battens. Some cruisers will choose a non-overlapping furling headsail with battens in the leech installed parallel to the luff. The beauty of sails like Doyle's UPS and our CLASS is that you get some usable roach and power without having to rely on battens which wouldn't be practical on sails like this anyway.

We are way behind on updating the website. Our Facebook page has an entry made on July 18th with a link to a customer blog showing him sailing what appears to be dead downwind across a lagoon in the South Pacific. We're a small company and don't have the luxury of people on the payroll who can sit around and keep the website updated all the time. Facebook is a more usable tool.

I don't know if the moderators will intervene if I post a link to the Facebook page but if you're on Facebook, just type Island Planet Sails in the search bar. It's a public page so there is no need to have a Facebook account or anything.
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Old 26-07-2012, 12:44   #40
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Don, for years Doyle only made that sail in 1.5oz nylon. The laminate is new. Ours is made in nylon and works fine. Unless you are really looking for that very extra edge, I don't think you need to spend the money on a laminate construction. For cruising in light winds, it just won't make a difference to you and the maintenance and storage of the nylon type will be easier.


You think this is difficult so far? Your next step is choosing colors and patterns - that's hard!
When I checked with Doyle about the material they say that they have been using the laminate for 10 years for the UPS and say it will sail better than the nylon. But they admit that it will not have the life of the nylon and if there is a problem somewhere remote it is going to be problem getting repaired.

They did say that doing a nylon would be less expensive. But it seems a a non issue as they weren't the high quote anyway. So far I have (North sails has apparently just decided to ignore my request):

Doyle UPS laminate - $2768
Mack Sail 2.1oz nylon - $3248
Island Sail 2.5oz nylon - $2649

Mack and Island quoted the same FX2500 furler and are $100 difference. Doyle on other hand quoted a Seldon unit that is $570 more that the FX.

I don't think the color will be that big an issue once I decide to part with the cash! Or course if I go that Doyle laminate the color isn't a choice at all.
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Old 26-07-2012, 13:18   #41
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

Laminates have some other drawbacks as well in terms of how you store them and some are prone to mildew issues. You really don't need a laminate for what you've described and the nylon is very easy to repair if something goes amiss.

The Facnor is the best bang for the buck. Selden and Karver make nice furlers but I can't see spending the extra on them given what you're doing. We're probably going to be using a (larger) Facnor on an Open 50 that is out to set a speed record to be the fastest singlehanded Australian circumnavigator.
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Old 26-07-2012, 13:34   #42
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
When I checked with Doyle about the material they say that they have been using the laminate for 10 years for the UPS and say it will sail better than the nylon. But they admit that it will not have the life of the nylon and if there is a problem somewhere remote it is going to be problem getting repaired.

They did say that doing a nylon would be less expensive. But it seems a a non issue as they weren't the high quote anyway. So far I have (North sails has apparently just decided to ignore my request):

Doyle UPS laminate - $2768
Mack Sail 2.1oz nylon - $3248
Island Sail 2.5oz nylon - $2649

Mack and Island quoted the same FX2500 furler and are $100 difference. Doyle on other hand quoted a Seldon unit that is $570 more that the FX.

I don't think the color will be that big an issue once I decide to part with the cash! Or course if I go that Doyle laminate the color isn't a choice at all.
Funny, when they quoted my UPS in 2006 they didn't mention a laminate version at all - even as an option. And I know 4 boats who got UPS's between 2005-2008 with no mention of laminate to them either.

Doyle's price on the nylon should be almost a grand less. Better yet, wait until boat show season and get the discount for that (or tell them you are going to put off the purchase for that reason and see if they can give you the discount now). And keep in mind that these are independent lofts - you can always try a different loft because there isn't a lot of specialized measuring or fitting for these sails. We bought ours from Doyle/Ploch in FL when we lived in CT.

We have the Facnor FX2000, which was the predecessor to the 2500 (essentially the same). It works well with our 861sqft UPS.

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Old 26-07-2012, 18:31   #43
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
But Doyle described the UPS to me as a Code Zero for cruisers, but you still want a Code Zero?

It is interesting that I have 2 other quotes for similar sails for the concepts, using 2.1 & 2.5 oz nylon instead of the super material Doyle wants to use. When I asked them about the material and my worry that it is too flimsy Doyle said they could change it to 1.5 oz nylon (for less money).

I thought this would be easier.
I am not a cruiser. I am a sailor that at times happens to cruise. I walked into the loft and the sailmaker sensed this immediately. ;-)

I hope this explains things:

(From Doyle's)

The Code Zero

http://www.doylesails.com/racing/images/codezero.jpg

(...) This is a specialty sail built out of high modulus materials for light air upwind and tight reaching.

> 46-80 AWA
> 0-14 AWS

The Doyle Utility Power Sail (UPS)

http://www.doylesails.com/cruising/images/tartanups.jpg

It's the first sail for cruisers who've done away with cumbersome, overlapping genoas but don't want to give up power in light air, or performance at any wind speed while reaching or running.

> 33-180 AWA
> ??? AWS (we carry ours up to 25 kts broad reaching, max 15 kts close hauled)

Maybe someone at Doyle used imaginative descriptives to give you an idea of what the sail is alike. In any case, making a code zero in nylon is a new idea (to me).

The "code-zero-like" sail that we are going to build (or have built) will be from low stretch Dacron or from super light cruising laminate (if we can afford a laminate). Smaller than UPS, flatter than UPS and with a straight cut luff. Specs like for the Zero above just in a cheaper material.

BTW Beware the ... -180 AWA end of the scale for the UPS is wishful thinking unless you drop the main (but then you also lose plenty of speed). So, stay above AWA 150 and have fun sailing.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 27-07-2012, 05:30   #44
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

What's a non-racer sailor to do? Maybe the real reason racers buy so many sails is because they "believe".

All I was interested in was a sail. The more I "learn" the worst off I am for making any decision.
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Old 27-07-2012, 19:13   #45
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Re: Doyle UPS sail

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
What's a non-racer sailor to do? Maybe the real reason racers buy so many sails is because they "believe".

All I was interested in was a sail. The more I "learn" the worst off I am for making any decision.
If you want a sail that is like a light winds genoa on steroids, get an UPS.

You can ask your sailmaker to build it so that it furls on any gennaker furler (the luff is then built slightly shorter to allow for the furling rig and there will be some form of a torsion rope or other furling aid in the luff).

The only situation when the UPS is no good is "very broad" reach and dead run.

Cheers,
b.
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