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Old 16-07-2016, 11:27   #61
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Cross the end over at the top under the loop as shown below.
You can pull the loop up a bit to give better access. This should not disturb the lacing.
Mark the centre of the cord with a texta:


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Old 16-07-2016, 11:31   #62
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Next push the lacing down.
Insert the ring.
Cross the ends (see later photo, I forgot to photograph the crossing here). This will help grip the ring and eliminate the risk of it popping out.
Push the lacing up until it lies lightly against the ring.
Press the centre of the lacing between your fingers to make it nice and smooth.
Finally tug on the ends to pull them neatly through the lacing. Dont overtighten as it bunches up the lacing.



I think I was in a hurry to have dinner so I must have skipped photographing each of these little steps. If anything is unclear let me know and I will take more photos.
OK, sold. I will try to make some of those.

Ironically that's very much like me G1 strops, just mine were not beautiful. I used small stuff like that, and looped it over the ring, and wrapped it between and around both legs, much like the pictures.

I went sailing with the strops in the original post of this thread, and the seizing fell apart.

The problem I believe is that under load the seizing is stressed just enough that it tries to work apart.

So this is totally invalid. I will edit the original post so that no one gets the idea to try it.

Tomorrow I'll make a couple of these and I'll report how it goes. I cross the Gulf of Finland hard on the wind (and maybe tacking) on Monday, so they'll get a workout.
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Old 16-07-2016, 11:35   #63
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Loosen the main loop enough to take out the ring.
This is what you end up with.
Note the crossing of the ends that I mentioned earlier directly above the lacing.

Bury the ends using the texta marks as entry points (as you would in an 'end to end' long bury splice).
This was easy with the dyneema. I can imagine it would be much more of a struggle using double braid. I did not attempt it here.

Leave the buries very loose so that the ring can be reinserted.

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Old 16-07-2016, 11:41   #64
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Once the ring is carefully inserted, maintaining the crossover above the lacing pull the buried ends tightly and cut them off where they emerge from the bury.

That's it.

I cheated here and just hid the ends under for the photo , but this is how it ends up looking.

The lacing is super quick. The only thing that takes a little time is the bury.





This is how it actually looks in dyneema:

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Old 16-07-2016, 11:49   #65
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
OK, sold. I will try to make some of those.

Ironically that's very much like me G1 strops, just mine were not beautiful. I used small stuff like that, and looped it over the ring, and wrapped it between and around both legs, much like the pictures.

I went sailing with the strops in the original post of this thread, and the seizing fell apart.

The problem I believe is that under load the seizing is stressed just enough that it tries to work apart.

So this is totally invalid. I will edit the original post so that no one gets the idea to try it.

Tomorrow I'll make a couple of these and I'll report how it goes. I cross the Gulf of Finland hard on the wind (and maybe tacking) on Monday, so they'll get a workout.
Oh, I am sorry it parted .
There would be a fair bit of force trying to pull the legs apart under load. This is the main reason I don't like the idea of tight whipping. The dyneema would not appreciate the whipping cutting into it either, even if it were to hold (burying the reef knots with long tails would probably prevent the parting).

If you are in a hurry, use some heat shrink as Evans suggested.

Safe passage .

SWL
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Old 16-07-2016, 12:02   #66
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Dockhead, in the above method, if you don't feel like fussing with any splicing, just wind the ends back down and seize them with a couple of constrictor knots at the base and snip the ends.

This method of seizing if left loose is under little load (only the turn around the low tension ring is tight), so nothing super secure is needed I think. Constrictor knots should do the trick. I suggest leaving the dyneema loop untouched (don't try sewing the cord to it to secure it).

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Old 17-07-2016, 01:43   #67
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

In keeping with the title of the thread I have been thinking about a super quick "down and dirty" solution.

I had a play this morning with the goal of finding the absolute minimum needed to cover ALL the criteria needed to secure a low tension ring. I have come up with a 3 minute job. Truly, even for someone with minimal rope work skills. .

4 knots in total are tied: 2 cow hitches, 1 reef knot (= square knot) and 1 overhand.

These were chosen quite carefully, partly for simplicity, but mainly for their properties.

A knot like the cow hitch is needed to grip the dyneema with the ends emerging pointing to the gap between the legs. A reasonable grip here is necessary, as the top of the dyneema loop could potentially lift up over the ring (lots can happen with flogging). It is not just flipping out of the bottom you need to guard against.

The reef knot is ideal to secure the cord tightly around the ring.

The knot like the overhand is ideal as you want something that will bind well and is not likely to undo with flogging (a reef knot does not qualify) and is not bulky.

This is how it looks:




I will photograph the technique later if anyone is interested in it.

In terms of satisfying the criteria I think are ideally needed to secure the ring:

• The low tension ring is secure when used
YES, it will not slip out under the binding, but nor is it likely to slip out under the top of the dyneema loop

• The binding is secure, it should not have any tendency to slide down
YES, zero tendency

• The strength of the strop is not compromised, so:
- The throat angle of the dyneema is soft near the ring (min 2:1)
YES, in fact zero restriction of the natural throat angle

- Minimal stress is put on the dyneema with the binding (no tight clamping or separation of the strands)
YES, although a light clamp is actually necessary with any method

• Relatively quick
YES, I think 3 minutes qualifies

• Suits the skills of most people tying these strops
YES, minimal skills needed

• Doesn't need lots of equipment or hard to source supplies
YES, all that is needed is about 80cm of UV resistant 2mm braided cord, zero equipment

• Inexpensive
YES, few cents

• Not offensive to the eye
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The fact that this capture is achieved so simply, easily, quickly and successfully makes me smile looking at it, rather than cringe .

Critique would be welcome.

Dockhead, fancy testing this out?

SWL
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Old 17-07-2016, 02:33   #68
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
In keeping with the title of the thread I have been thinking about a super quick "down and dirty" solution.

I had a play this morning with the goal of finding the absolute minimum needed to cover ALL the criteria needed to secure a low tension ring. I have come up with a 3 minute job. Truly, even for someone with minimal rope work skills. .

4 knots in total are tied: 2 cow hitches, a reef knot (= square knot) and an overhand.

These were chosen quite carefully, partly for simplicity, but mainly for their properties.

A knot like the cow hitch is needed to grip the dyneema with the ends emerging pointing to the gap between the legs. A reasonable grip here is necessary, as the top of the dyneema loop could potentially lift up over the ring (lots can happen with flogging). It is not just flipping out of the bottom you need to guard against.

The reef knot is ideal to secure the cord tightly around the ring.

The knot like the overhand is ideal as you want something that will bind well and is not likely to undo with flogging (a reef knot does not qualify) and is not bulky.

This is how it looks:




I will photograph the technique later.

In terms of satisfying the criteria I think are needed to secure the ring:

The low tension ring is secure when used
YES, it will not slip out under the binding, but nor is it likely to slip out under the top of the dyneema loop

The binding is secure, it should not have any tendency to slide down
YES, zero tendency

The strength of the strop is not compromised, so:
- The throat angle of the dyneema is soft near the ring (min 2:1)
YES, in fact zero restriction of the natural throat angle

- Minimal stress is put on the dyneema with the binding (no tight clamping or separation of the strands)
YES, although a light clamp is actually necessary with any method

Relatively quick
YES, I think 3 minutes qualifies

Suits the skills of most people tying these strops
YES, minimal skills needed

Doesn't need lots of equipment or hard to source supplies
YES, all that is needed is about 80cm of UV resistant 2mm braided cord, zero equipment

Inexpensive
YES, few cents

Not offensive to the eye
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The fact that this capture is achieved so simply, easily, quickly and successfully makes me smile looking at it, rather than cringe .

Critique would be welcome.

Dockhead, fancy testing this out?

SWL
I tried out something like that, last year. The problem with it is that there is nothing to dampen the stress on the whipping, and it gets askew and works loose.

I think I prefer your previous one. I just made one using a simplified version with a reef knot:



I don't know whether the reef knot will hold, but there is a lot of damping from all the turns. We'll see.

Next I'm going to make a couple using your weave, which separates the legs better. This is key, I think, because the better then throat angle, the less jerking on the seizing, and the less it will tend to work loose. I will try it with the ends tucked through like you showed but then tied where they come out, since I sure as hell can't be bothered to splice 2mm cordage.
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Old 17-07-2016, 02:57   #69
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

OK, so here's my first attempt with your weave:



This is superior in several ways. First of all, the added bulk between the legs improves the throat angle, which is crucially important to reduce "working" of the seizing.

Then the other big advantage is that the cord is run very indirectly back around the ring so that very little motion will be transmitted that far to work the knot loose.

I tied it off with a reef knot under the "chin" of the ring, where it is almost invisible.

I think this is the right direction. One problem I have is understanding how to tension the weaving as it's done. I found it difficult to keep constant tension, and variable tension makes the weave uneven and unpretty. What I ended up with was too tight, as it was hard to get the tails back up through (I had to use the splicing tool.

Now I'll try again, but weaving more loosely and trying to make it neater.
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Old 17-07-2016, 03:17   #70
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I tried out something like that, last year. The problem with it is that there is nothing to dampen the stress on the whipping, and it gets askew and works loose.
There is zero whipping in my last example. That is one of its features.
The only way the cord touches the dyneema is with 2 cow hitches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I just made one using a simplified version with a reef knot:
I don't know whether the reef knot will hold, but there is a lot of damping from all the turns. We'll see.
I don't think the amount of loading on the reef knot is an issue here. It is the fact that over time with repetitive movement of the strop, there is a risk it may work loose. I don't know how high the risk is, but I would guess reasonable. I would not finish it this way.

One other comment too, I can't see that there is anything to stop the lacing working down. Try giving the sides of the lacing a decent push down with your fingers and see.

It is not just that it starts to look messy when it slides down. All that movement is not good and also it loosens the grip the cord has on the dyneema and you run a risk the loop could just lift right off the top of the ring. I can make this happen scarily easily.

For this reason, if you are lacing, something needs to pull it up at the end. This can be achieved by starting from the ring and lacing down first, then winding the ends around the centre or feeding then up through the weave, before passing them around the low tension ring.
Starting by winding around the ring then lacing down (as I think you did) leaves you stuck with a good means of securing the lacing.

This is all just constructive criticism, although it feels like criticising someone's child . Wish I could just say "nice job".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Next I'm going to make a couple using your weave, which separates the legs better. This is key, I think, because the better then throat angle, the less jerking on the seizing, and the less it will tend to work loose. I will try it with the ends tucked through like you showed but then tied where they come out, since I sure as hell can't be bothered to splice 2mm cordage.
I guessed you would not want to splice the end . I suggested a couple of constrictor knots for that reason. On second thoughts, a reef knot plus overhand would probably be better long term.

The style of weave was deliberately used was to fill in the gap between the legs not for looks. Thicker cord would also help with bigger low tension rings.

SWL
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Old 17-07-2016, 03:40   #71
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
OK, so here's my first attempt with your weave:
.......
I tied it off with a reef knot under the "chin" of the ring, where it is almost invisible.
I don't like the security of a reef knot in 2mm line. A reef is needed as it is the easiest way to make the cord tight around the ring, but would finish the reef knot with an overhand "stopper" as I did in the 3 min job, leave the tails longer as shown and melt the ends with a gas lighter to stop them getting tatty.
I know the knot is visible then, but it is secure. Two reef knots would not do the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think this is the right direction. One problem I have is understanding how to tension the weaving as it's done. I found it difficult to keep constant tension, and variable tension makes the weave uneven and unpretty. What I ended up with was too tight, as it was hard to get the tails back up through (I had to use the splicing tool.

Now I'll try again, but weaving more loosely and trying to make it neater.
Yes, the main problem is that it is too tight. Have a look at the kink in the dyneema loop where the lacing start at the top. Aim for no kink, just a straight line to minimise the strain on the loop.

When the lacing is so tight it is hard to even out the tension as well. When it is looser you can just lightly grip the sides and wriggle about 3 turns of the lacing and the tension eventually equals out. Then slide your fingers down and wriggle the next few turns. Repeat as much as needed to get it even.

As I laced I also just eyeballed it and tried to make the initial spacing just about as wide as the diameter of the bit of the ring the dyneema passes around (use some calipers and measure this) and narrowed it until the last couple of turns were spaced closely. If you taper a bit as you go, not a lot of wriggling is then needed to get it even.
Starting wide like this also ensures the dyneema needs no kink it it to enter the lacing and the legs of the strop have no need to try and pull apart.

SWL
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Old 17-07-2016, 08:12   #72
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I don't like the security of a reef knot in 2mm line. A reef is needed as it is the easiest way to make the cord tight around the ring, but would finish the reef knot with an overhand "stopper" as I did in the 3 min job, leave the tails longer as shown and melt the ends with a gas lighter to stop them getting tatty.
I know the knot is visible then, but it is secure. Two reef knots would not do the trick.



Yes, the main problem is that it is too tight. Have a look at the kink in the dyneema loop where the lacing start at the top. Aim for no kink, just a straight line to minimise the strain on the loop.

When the lacing is so tight it is hard to even out the tension as well. When it is looser you can just lightly grip the sides and wriggle about 3 turns of the lacing and the tension eventually equals out. Then slide your fingers down and wriggle the next few turns. Repeat as much as needed to get it even.

As I laced I also just eyeballed it and tried to make the initial spacing just about as wide as the diameter of the bit of the ring the dyneema passes around (use some calipers and measure this) and narrowed it until the last couple of turns were spaced closely. If you taper a bit as you go, not a lot of wriggling is then needed to get it even.
Starting wide like this also ensures the dyneema needs no kink it it to enter the lacing and the legs of the strop have no need to try and pull apart.

SWL
OK, thanks for all that. I made four more strops, regulating tension on the seizing as you suggested, and adding a half hitch to the reef knot.

I'm using two strops each for my jib twings with two more for the inhauler, so six in total just for my jib sheet leads. I still need a few more, but I'm now out of Dyneema again.

They look pretty decent actually. Just sailed 20 miles with them, dead upwind, tacking, so some tonnes of force on them. They held up fine and the seizing didn't creep. We may be getting close to a real "down and dirty" solution. The last ones only took 15 minutes each for the entire process.

I'll cross the Gulf of Finland tomorrow, also hard on the wind, so the strops will get a good workout. I'll report if the reef knots hold up or the seizing creeps.


All this trouble is sure worth it. The very high aspect blade jib is so brilliant upwind. It seems to have about half the drag of the yankee, so half the heeling, but nearly the same amount of power when going hard upwind.
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Old 17-07-2016, 09:43   #73
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

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OK, thanks for all that. I made four more strops, regulating tension on the seizing as you suggested, and adding a half hitch to the reef knot.

I'm using two strops each for my jib twings with two more for the inhauler, so six in total just for my jib sheet leads. I still need a few more, but I'm now out of Dyneema again.

They look pretty decent actually. Just sailed 20 miles with them, dead upwind, tacking, so some tonnes of force on them. They held up fine and the seizing didn't creep. We may be getting close to a real "down and dirty" solution. The last ones only took 15 minutes each for the entire process.
The seizing won't creep. The reef knot with half hitch is the only thing that may let you down.

I'm very happy that the instructions made sense and that the binding is functioning as it should . It makes all those photos worthwhile.

I will still post a couple of shots illustrating the "3 minute" method. It is deceptively simple, and in my opinion not functionally inferior to the more complex lashing, perhaps even superior, as the dyneema loop is gripped a little more not allowing it to slip over the top of the low tension ring, and especially because with a little care it leaves the throat of the dyneema loop completely free so the legs of the loop can take their natural path under load. The only fault with it is that it is a bit "grubby" (although not completely dirty ), as the tails are not buried. There is elegance in its simplicity though.

SWL
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Old 17-07-2016, 10:18   #74
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

When you go to use the strop, how are you attaching the other end? Luggage tag thru the toe rail?

Please post photos with the item in use.

Thanks.
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Old 17-07-2016, 10:28   #75
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Re: Down and Dirty Dyneema Strops

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When you go to use the strop, how are you attaching the other end? Luggage tag thru the toe rail?

Please post photos with the item in use.

Thanks.
Yes, a cow hitch is generally used I think, but most toerails are too weak for this purpose. Strong padeyes are generally needed.

-----

Dockhead, I agree that photos would be good. Also if you have time, a schematic diagram with how the lines run and exactly where you have installed the clutches (or where you think would be ideal) would be very interesting and useful for our planning.

SWL
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