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Old 14-06-2014, 07:08   #1
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Double Sheet Bend Query

This question is about the humble Double Sheet Bend, a very useful knot particularly when you need to very quickly connect two lines of different diameter reasonably securely.

I am querying how this simple knot (that seems to have been in use for centuries a certain way) is best tied.

When tying any knot, I try and snug it down so it sets neatly and slippage is avoided. Rightly or wrongly, I always give the first turn of the standard Double Sheet Bend a bit of a push to do this. I have assumed when the knot is under load it would often slip into this position naturally anyway. If it did not, I think the knot would not grip as well.

At some point I started tying the knot differently so that this push was not needed. So I am reporting it here to hopefully get some feedback from everyone else on this method. I can find no info online and have no book on knots, so my version may have already been discussed by Ashley or someone else and found to be faulty, but it would be really good for me to know that.

This is the standard way of tying a Double Sheet Bend. The lines I used here were ordinary double braid: 10 mm for the thinner and 16 mm for the thicker (our yankee sheet):
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Old 14-06-2014, 07:10   #2
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

This is my version. Either tie a Double Sheet Bend the usual way and then push over the first turn, or make the second turn away from the apex of the thick line before bringing it under both turns (my current method):
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Old 14-06-2014, 07:12   #3
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

I could only perform a highly unscientific trial (unknown variable force with few tests) tightening up the knot by tying one end on a cleat and winching the other end, but my initial impressions about the 2 versions look to be possibly correct.

For the standard version of the double sheet bend, there was always considerable slippage of both lines. I was hesitant to apply any more force to see if the slippage eventually stopped:
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Old 14-06-2014, 07:14   #4
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

For the version I use, there was always no slippage of the thicker line and only tightening, not slippage of the thinner one:
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Old 14-06-2014, 07:15   #5
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

If the version I use is worse, why can I find no warnings?
If the version I use is better, why is it not in use?

Does anyone know the answer or can anyone test both versions on a load tester with the two lines used of different diameter, as well as the same diameter?
I would have such fun if I had a load tester .
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Old 14-06-2014, 07:28   #6
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Hmm FWIW, I must have been doing it wrong for years...

I usually only do it your way SWL and have just got used to that being the "right" way .
Now you have spoiled it for me. I will have retrain to do it the "right" way and then revert to doing it the "better" way.

Heck, I think I will just burn Ashley's, log off CF, go sailing and tie the knots however I feel like on the day...
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Old 14-06-2014, 08:24   #7
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Hmm FWIW, I must have been doing it wrong for years...

I usually only do it your way SWL and have just got used to that being the "right" way .
Now you have spoiled it for me. I will have retrain to do it the "right" way and then revert to doing it the "better" way.
ROFL!
If you have a copy of Ashley's, could you check out what it is that we have been tying? I can't find it described anywhere. It certainly performs differently to the classic Double Sheet Bend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Heck, I think I will just burn Ashley's, log off CF, go sailing and tie the knots however I feel like on the day...
Want me to give you the link for tying a French Bowline?
Well worth learning that one .
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Old 14-06-2014, 17:43   #8
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

The slipped version of the original DSB looks as though you did not snug it properly before applying tension. Failing to do so can allow the knot to overturn as shown.

If snugged properly, I suspect that the original would be more secure than your new version.

FWIW, I eschew the SB and DSB in favour of the Zeppelin Bend (which can also be tied with unequal sizes) largely because it can overturn if not snugged - as you found out. If the difference in size is major, you can double tuck the thinner rope on a ZB in a similar manner to the DSB.
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Old 14-06-2014, 20:47   #9
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
The slipped version of the original DSB looks as though you did not snug it properly before applying tension. Failing to do so can allow the knot to overturn as shown.

If snugged properly, I suspect that the original would be more secure than your new version.

FWIW, I eschew the SB and DSB in favour of the Zeppelin Bend (which can also be tied with unequal sizes) largely because it can overturn if not snugged - as you found out. If the difference in size is major, you can double tuck the thinner rope on a ZB in a similar manner to the DSB.
Unless I applied tension and held it (impractical in real life use) it was not possible to pre tighten it any more by hand, as the thicker line had stiffened slightly with use. The results of the knot slipping were very repeatable. Maybe my version is better because it IS possible to hand tighten it better?

It is an interesting thought that older, slightly stiffer lines may perform very differently to soft new line. How many tests on knot comparisons are done with line actually in use? I know some tests have been done on older knots, but I'm not aware of any having been done on older salty line. How a knot performs then is actually critical. Who reaches for brand new line every time LOL?

Thanks for the info on the Zeppelin. I did not realise it could be used on lines of different diameters. I had never liked tying the knot much, so always used the Alpine BB in preference. I know that the Zeppelin is a slightly better knot though, so I bit the bullet and practised it over the last few days. I have become a fan now .

I found with just a little practice the Z is actually much quicker to tie than the Alpine (particularly because the Alpine always needs fiddling to get the lines aligned correctly before the final tighten whereas with the Zeppelin the two standing ends can just be given a very quick yank to tighten). The Z can still easily be done with your eyes closed if you have a set technique, it is no harder to get "wrong" than most other knots. Like all knots, it was just a case of getting this technique into my muscle memory. I have become a convert .

BTW, is the version I tie of the Double Sheet Bend a recognised knot? If so, what is it called?
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Old 14-06-2014, 21:55   #10
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
.....Maybe my version is better because it IS possible to hand tighten it better?

It is an interesting thought that older, slightly stiffer lines may perform very differently to soft new line.......
I have just had a play. No, I don't think my version can be tightened by hand any better, but if a DSB can't be well tightened due to the age/thickness of the line combination, then my version just seems to be much less likely to slip (because the overhand knot bit has been snugged) - the difference between the knot holding or not. That is a critical thing in real life use and not something I have seen discussed.
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Old 15-06-2014, 14:44   #11
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
If snugged properly, I suspect that the original would be more secure than your new version.
Stu, I keep glancing back at the knot I tie and I think that even if the original DSB is tightened up as much as possible before load is put on, it would still be weaker. My version is essentially just a double overhand around the bend. I would call the original a double overhand that has been left completely "unsnugged" even if it is tightened up. This is why I have always rolled it over.

The two knots are not the same, as I had always assumed. The original does not turn into mine when load is put on it (at least it certainly didn't so for my winch trials using 16 mm and 10 mm line).

Is my version a recognised knot? I have never seen a diagram of a knot tied this way, although it is very likely Ashley has described it.
Can anyone please test it out with line of the same and differing diameter?
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Old 15-06-2014, 17:41   #12
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

I've been searching online but haven't found your knot yet either. (Don't have access to Ashley at the moment).
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Old 15-06-2014, 18:49   #13
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Ashley Book Of Knots, Chapter 18 - Bends.......

http://www.prepperinfo.us/pdf/the%20...of%20knots.pdf
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Old 15-06-2014, 21:35   #14
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Thanks Islandhopper for that link. It has answered the question.

The comon Sheet Bend as per SL's first image is ABOK #1434. There is a variation as ABOK #1435 (also called a Sheet Bend):

"1435 The DOUBLE SHEET BEND is sometimes tied by abother method. It may be more quickly made in this way, since it has one less tuck"

This one, like SL's wraps away from the bight, but it only tucks under one loop, not both. I still haven't found an exact match.
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Old 15-06-2014, 23:56   #15
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Got it. SL's knot appears to be the same as ABOK #488 which he says is "the same knot as the Double Sheet Bend".
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