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Old 16-06-2014, 00:14   #16
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Ashley Book Of Knots, Chapter 18 - Bends.......

http://www.prepperinfo.us/pdf/the%20...of%20knots.pdf
Thank you so much IslandHopper for posting the link .

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Thanks Islandhopper for that link. It has answered the question.

The comon Sheet Bend as per SL's first image is ABOK #1434. There is a variation as ABOK #1435 (also called a Sheet Bend):

"1435 The DOUBLE SHEET BEND is sometimes tied by abother method. It may be more quickly made in this way, since it has one less tuck"

This one, like SL's wraps away from the bight, but it only tucks under one loop, not both. I still haven't found an exact match.
Stu, thanks for looking at it. I have been frustrated by my weak internet on board and I haven't been able to load the link.

It is interesting to hear you haven't found it so far. It may be one of these:
Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.

Mine is such a very basic knot that I would be very surprised if it is not there. I really feel it may be significantly stronger than the original (#1434) that is the one you see pictures everywhere and in current use.

The logic behind this is that in both the original and in my version, it is just a double overhand that is being tied around a U bend. All other double overhands I have ever come across (whether used on their own as in a stopper, or as part of other knots like the double fishermans) are ALWAYS snugged up by rolling over the loops so that that nice ball forms. It was just instinctive to do this whenever I have tied my version of the DSB. The original just doesn't seem finished.

I am going to give it a rough trial by putting it in the middle of our snubber and hoping for some strong wind or wave action soon (patience is not one of my virtues LOL). I hope hubbie doesn't yell too much if it doesn't hold .
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Old 16-06-2014, 00:27   #17
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Got it. SL's knot appears to be the same as ABOK #488 which he says is "the same knot as the Double Sheet Bend".
Ah, thank you so much (I was busy typing and missed this post of yours).

Yes, I have always thought it is the same too (see my first post in this thread) , but unless the standard 1434 is turned into 488 I think it will slip far more easily (instantly seen in my rough winch tests connecting old 16 mm and 10 mm double braided polyester).

Yet this is never mentioned . 488 (the one I tie) is just a finished (ie fully snubbed) version of 1434. 1434 will not necessarily turn into 488 under load. I still believe this is necessary to improve the strength of the knot.

Basically, I think all diagrams of the finished sheet bend we see in all knot books are just plain wrong. It is not the finished sheet bend, it is an unfinished version.

I think that the fact that it is such a simple knot and has been in use for so many centuries, that no one has revisited this and queried how it is classically shown everywhere.

It does mean though that there are probably many people (apart from Wotname ) tying it without completing it properly.

What do you think?
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Old 16-06-2014, 00:32   #18
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

> I am going to give it a rough trial by putting it in the middle of our snubber and hoping for some strong wind or wave action

I wouldn't. It seems to be a fairly common sentiment that neither the SB nor the DSB are very good with modern fibres. They overturn/slip too easily. I'll stick with the Zeppelin.
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Old 16-06-2014, 01:02   #19
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
> I am going to give it a rough trial by putting it in the middle of our snubber and hoping for some strong wind or wave action

I wouldn't. It seems to be a fairly common sentiment that neither the SB nor the DSB are very good with modern fibres. They overturn/slip too easily. I'll stick with the Zeppelin.
LOL, I did not mean I would tie it in the snubber (the line is too thick anyway for the load to be significant), I meant I would attach a bit of thinner double braided polyester line on one end of the snubber and have a "finished" DSB in the middle of that. Just a very easy way of applying a high load to thin line and seeing if it slips. I could try the unfinished version then.

Very unscientific, but I could at least see what happened to it under high load.
Far better if someone with load equipment could test it out for me .

PS I usually tie a triple fishermans if I need to connect slippery line and the knot does not have to be subsequently untied .
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Old 16-06-2014, 01:18   #20
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
......Basically, I think all diagrams of the finished sheet bend we see in all knot books are just plain wrong. It is not the finished sheet bend, it is an unfinished version.

I think that the fact that it is such a simple knot and has been in use for so many centuries, that no one has revisited this and queried how it is classically shown everywhere.
Just getting back to this issue, I still strongly suspect that images of sheet bends should be shown as my version in post #2, not the current image you see everywhere that is in post #1 (ie ABOK 1434).

Also to avoid the knot being unfinished without long explanations of needing to roll over the first turn while it was being tightened up (messy method), I think the knot is best tied this way:
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:18   #21
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Ashley Book Of Knots, Chapter 18 - Bends.......

http://www.prepperinfo.us/pdf/the%20...of%20knots.pdf
Thank you so much for this link. I have managed to download it now. I have no knot books on board, so this is fabulous!

I am in the process of joining a knot tying forum (no confirmation email yet) so will post the query there and report back any responses.

I will also post my query there about the Estar Hitch as well, as shown on Grogs Animated Knots, which I think has been incorrectly animated.

They have a "new knot" section and I have been playing with a few bends that make work better in Amsteel Blue than the Triple Fishermans does. I now at least have Ashleys to see if whatever I come up with is already listed there.

Again, many thanks.
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Old 16-06-2014, 11:33   #22
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

It appears to me that SL's "standard version" (post 1) is the correct one. Her second post is a different knot, having two binding loops over the one line rather than two loops under the binding line. if that makes sense...!
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Old 16-06-2014, 12:35   #23
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It appears to me that SL's "standard version" (post 1) is the correct one. Her second post is a different knot, having two binding loops over the one line rather than two loops under the binding line. if that makes sense...!
No, deceptively it looks different, but you can tie my version just by tying version 1 and passing the first loop over when tightening it (just as you would any double overhand knot usually).

This passing over of the loop is how I originally tied version 1 to snug it properly, but then for ease I am now tying it by passing the second loop away from the apex rather than towards, then tucking the tail under both loops. The final result is identical.

I am not surprised both versions are called Double Sheet bends by Ashley. My one (ABOK #488) is just a "finished" version of the other (ABOK #1434). What does surprise me though is that the first version has been selected when this knot is taught. I believe it is incomplete and less secure.

I may be wrong. Often am LOL . But just because something has been in place a long time does not mean it can't be challenged and improved on. How else do we progress?
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Old 16-06-2014, 22:09   #24
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Thank you so much for this link. I have managed to download it now. I have no knot books on board, so this is fabulous!

I am in the process of joining a knot tying forum (no confirmation email yet) so will post the query there and report back any responses.

I will also post my query there about the Estar Hitch as well, as shown on Grogs Animated Knots, which I think has been incorrectly animated.

They have a "new knot" section and I have been playing with a few bends that make work better in Amsteel Blue than the Triple Fishermans does. I now at least have Ashleys to see if whatever I come up with is already listed there.

Again, many thanks.
You are most welcome....
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Old 17-06-2014, 03:40   #25
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
......
Want me to give you the link for tying a French Bowline?
Well worth learning that one .
Got that one well sorted thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
...........
I am in the process of joining a knot tying forum (no confirmation email yet) so will post the query there and report back any responses.........
Oh do tell
(TKB???)
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Old 17-06-2014, 07:36   #26
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Re: Double Sheet Bend Query

I have just joined the International Guild of Knot Tyers forum and posted the query here:
Important Double Sheet Bend query

I will report back if I get any responses .

Any feedback from members would be great regarding which version of the Double Sheet Bend you use. The one in post #1 or post #2?
Not what you have learned from a book or the internet or classes (as far as I can tell, version 1 is the one universally taught), but which version you actually use.

So far Wotname and I are the only ones who have admitted to using the renegade version 2 .
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