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Old 05-08-2006, 19:16   #16
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G'day again,

I certainly was not advocating the use of Vectran for Dock lines nor Manilla (in most cases).

My poorly written post was more directed towards the fact that fibre type dictates the elasticity (stretch) of a line more than the construction type.

The vectran/manila comment was there to demonstrate a 3 strand rope is not stretchy just because it's a 3 strand. A 3 strand (or any other construction) made from vectran or manila will not stretch where one made from Nylon will. Actually manila does stretch a little but not much, possibly not the best example.

When picking Dock line, or any other line come to that, the fibre type will or will not give you elasticity. Just picking a rope beceause it's a 3 strand will lead to wrong choices being made.

FYI - Vectran and Manila have a lot less stretch than Nylon, which has about the most you will find commonly in recreational use, bungy excepted.
Commercial shipping uses Manila and Dyneema/Spectra mooring lines to get very low stretch, but then they don't want any movement and are usually in no-movement areas anyway.

Generally and assuming the same fibre type, 3 strand and ocitplait stretch about the same. The ocitplait will start to work a tad sooner than 3 strand but not go quite as far at break load. Double braids generally have a lot less stretch, especially parallel cored ones. There is some purpose built double braids for docking and mooring which are built to have lots of stretch becoming easily available.

Saying all of that a couple of bits of manila can be damn good dock lines sometimes. As mentioned above if you are in a grubby place, oysters on piles and so on manila can be handy. Very low cost so you can chuck them if it is that bad, better than beating up some nice ropes.

Sail and dock safe
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Old 05-08-2006, 19:54   #17
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I would still argue it is BOTH the fiber type and the construction. A climber's safety rope, made of the same "nylon" as halyards used to be made from, has what is called a "kernmantle" layup and is designed to elongate significantly under shock load, to protect a falling climber from impact shocks. (And in doing so, the ropes themselves are damaged enough so that after 3 falls a rope was condemned and--sacrilage!--cut up to make sure it couldn't accidentally be used that way again.

Is a nylon halyard stretchy? Compared to "hitechlar" sure. But it would kill a climber from static shock--simply because of different construction. And a climbing safety rope would make a lousy halyard, you'd be hauling all day and it would be sneaking around getting longer while you weren't looking.<G>

But on a more important note...is there anyone who deosn't find the two-colored Real Pretty Braided dock lines, well, embarassing to be seen with? Only seen 'em on powerboats so far.<G>
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Old 05-08-2006, 21:31   #18
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Yes you are right, there is 'some' stretch factors in the differing constructions but small compared with what you get from playing with fibre types.

Climbing ropes are brought up a lot but they are a very specialised thing and don't relate too well with everyday ropes. I think you'll find one good fall and the sissors come out, you're right there again OUCH!!. Climbing ropes are designed to stretch when fallen on but doing so you are loading the rope to %'s well above any recommended WLL's used in normal rope situations. Generally boat ropes are designed to be used at 20% of break load or less. A fall on a 11mm kermantle will get close to break load and hence the stretch from that. These ropes are a bit like Ferrari engine, specialised, expensive, can have a short life and pretty damn useless (unless you have so much money you don't know what to do with it all and some say a small penis ) in everyday situations.

A Nylon climbing rope is far better as a halyard than most general boating made nylons. Less stretch at WLL, Yes due to the special construction. NB: Use nylon halyards and I'll shoot you by the way.... ucky ucky ucky

Re Nylons - there is many differing types each with their own characteristics. Climbing ropes tend to use Type66 and above. There is a few Type66 types in boating but most are Type6 and the real cheapies can be 'textured nylon' which is more a clothing grade and a bit nasty on boats.

I think we are both coming from the same place really . It was your comment way above about 'use 3 strand cause it is stretchy' without the added 'when using the right fibre' which started this. Me being picky and dealing with similar questions all day I suspect. I deal with many with low boating knowledge and seem to have developed a 'Opps no but yes' sort of a thing.

Hey don't knock pretty braided dock line's, mine are. Well they are this week, they do change often like most of my ropes. This is usually because I get bored with the colour, have a new 'cunning plan', trying out a new rope and just because I can . One advantage of having a office surrounded by approx. 15,000 kg of ropes . Generally pretty braided dock lines does indercate a purchase made for cosmetic reasons over structural.

Summery - we are both right to a point anyway Good chatting with you by the way.

Off to the marina to check my lines now actually, it's blow it's breast off at the moment. FYI - My marina lines are a nice German made polyester 3 strand in quite a sexy solid navy blue colour. Polyester cause its best, 3 strand cause it's the cheapest and navy cause I could
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Old 05-08-2006, 21:34   #19
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Keel hauling is so difficult with modern appendages. A fin keel with a spade rudder. Or a full keep with a cutaway fore foot. I think Nylon line is best for those configurations b/c the stretch allows the person being keel hauled to manuver there way around the appendages. Manila will work in a pinch and it is cheaper.
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Old 06-08-2006, 02:58   #20
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GMac:
Im interested in the reasoning behind your statement: ... My marina lines are ... Polyester cause its best ...
Ive always understood polyester to be slightly weaker & much less elastic than nylon (tho, perhaps, superior in resistance to abrasion and sunlight).
What am I missing?
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:13   #21
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"One advantage of having a office surrounded by approx. 15,000 kg of ropes ." Well, I hope you brought enough for everyone to share.<G> I wonder if there's a market for upscale Yachting Lines the way the market for bed linens has gone, i.e. "thousand thread count" and all the games marketers have played with that?<G>

Charlie, keelhauling is a lot like golf. Don't worry, if you miss the keel the first time you can "take a mulligan" and pull the guy back and forth again until you find it. Honest, even the British Navy did it that way.<G>
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Old 06-08-2006, 13:27   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
GMac:
Im interested in the reasoning behind your statement: ... My marina lines are ... Polyester cause its best ...
Ive always understood polyester to be slightly weaker & much less elastic than nylon (tho, perhaps, superior in resistance to abrasion and sunlight).
What am I missing?
You hit it pretty much on the button there Gord. You're not missing anything.

Only slightly weaker when the nylon is dry. About the same as wet Nylon.

A bit less stretch at break but similar at WLL. Used in a Marine you get a some stretch but don't need a lot anyway as it is a no-wave action situation, just wind. A lot of boats are a 'firm' fit in some marinas so you don't want to much give in the lines if the wind really cranks up.

Good or better UV, stays softer and less abrasion issues.

All just what you need in marina lines.

Did I mention you can get some pretty colours as well now
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Old 06-08-2006, 15:24   #23
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GMac, not to twist the topic & push my luck a little, but would you know anything about BUNGEE cords & their construction?

I ask because we've got these nice bungee-loaded cars for the genoa that allow shorthanded control for the cars. Except, WM's typical bungee, regardless of color (white, red, etc.) disintegrates from UV and/or salt in a fast 3-4 months of light use.

I've found references to milspec bungee covers, double bungee covers, all sorts of better bungee...but no one in that business knows how to answer an email. Any suggestions?

Or (and here your fiber knowledge might help) would applying human type sunblock on conventional (dacron? nylon? over rubber?) bungee help it any, or just help rot the rubber?
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Old 06-08-2006, 22:55   #24
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I have had a lot of chafe on my shore lines and today I was talking with a chap who had over come the chafing problem. Basically on the eye bolts he attaches a heavy shackle, connected to a thimble on the bow, stern and spring lines. I was going through two sets of lines (windy area in the fall, winter and spring) with my boat in a year; he has been using the same lines for around 6 years now. I guess if a shackle and thimble is good enough for an anchor, its good enough for shore lines.
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:23   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
GMac, not to twist the topic & push my luck a little, but would you know anything about BUNGEE cords & their construction?

I ask because we've got these nice bungee-loaded cars for the genoa that allow shorthanded control for the cars. Except, WM's typical bungee, regardless of color (white, red, etc.) disintegrates from UV and/or salt in a fast 3-4 months of light use.

I've found references to milspec bungee covers, double bungee covers, all sorts of better bungee...but no one in that business knows how to answer an email. Any suggestions?

Or (and here your fiber knowledge might help) would applying human type sunblock on conventional (dacron? nylon? over rubber?) bungee help it any, or just help rot the rubber?
We are getting the same issue here with some.

As most things there is now many assorted bungies. I'm guessing that WM like most big places does look hard at prices they pay and have decided to go the polyprop cover way, whether the purchasing department has realised this or not who knows. Our big WM wantabe was selling the same (made in the east) sounding stuff which they thought was a good price until they found out it was quite a differant product than the local made.

Generally most covers were polyester over a good individual or solid rubber core. Not so much anymore.

The dodgy stuff seen around this way is cheap but then it is also mostly PP cover and many suspect a lower grade rubber under. As you have noticed the Sun loves to eat up polyprop. To have any decent UV resistance polyprop must have an additive. In the interests of cost saving I suspect sometimes the additive is not alway added or cut a bit short.

I'd suggest you look for a bungy with a Polyester cover, which being a higher quality than PP will probably mean a bit more care is taken on the core as well. It 'should' cost a bit more but then you will not have to replace it so often so could work out a lot cheaper in the long run.

Just a quick jump to the left as a FYI:
We stock 4 differant 12mm 3 strand laid nylon ropes. Ya Whot!! I hear you say. Each has it's own use.

1, Brought on price alone. For just general stuff not too important. Generally low grade raw material and OK to Ucky manufacture. Will not last long before turning stiff. Made in the China (mostly) on any old machine. Cost base at 1
2, Brought for the price based buyer who needs something a bit reliable. Generally a OK rope but lower end raw material. Made in Korea by big organised outfits with nice gear. Will last a while but will go hard relitivly quickly. Cost in relation to above about 1.3
3, A very nice Type66 rope usable in 96% of places and will last well. For the boats where it does have to work, be relable and cost is not so important. Made in Japan and/or Germany by a good manufacturer on good gear. Cost 1.8
4, The Bees Knees. Type66 again, lubricated, torque balanced and top end stuff. For use on Auto Rope to Chain Winches where ropes do get a beating. Will last a very long time with a little maintenance. Made in the US by a top end manufacturer. Cost compared to the first one 2.5. Even though this rope costs 2 and 1/2 times more than No. 1 it should easily last 10 times longer and not give so much grief.

No. 1, 10mts cost $10 and lasts 2 years.
No. 4, 10mts cost $25 and lasts 10 years
Assuming you want a rope to last a long time, which is the cheapest rope to buy?

All of these ropes look very very similar and to most people exactly the same. As you can see above they are all a bit to a hell of a lot differant in many ways.

From what I have seen most chandleries are getting closer to number 2 sometime 1 than no. 4. This is why we carry so many as fixing cock-ups from, usually not too knowledgeable, chandlery staff is great business, sadly.

This is the same with so much gear out there these days, bungy being just one example. Hence why I tend to bang on a bit about asking questions and not just grabbing something that 'looks' like the stuff you had on the boat for the last 15 years.

Ask questions and if they don't know the answer find someone who does. Just a simple "where was it made?" can tell you a fair bit or at least give an indication. I'm sure most of you will have some idea of what countries tend to produce what quality goods. If they will not give you an answer I'd be suspecting somewhere cheap. Even if they did not make or import it all it takes is one phone call to their supplier and they should be able to give an answer.

Sorry about the drift but we find so many people who think a rope is a rope, for example, when if fact there is some very big differances now even if they look the same. We belive more education of the boating public is only a good thing in these times.

Gezzz another bloody novel. You just know what buttons to push don't you

Opps missed bit. Sunblock ??? I don't really know. I've heard of some who have done it but don't know the results. It has a real mix of ingrediants some of which maybe not good. I'd try a bit first rather than possibly trash a big pile of ropes. Interesting question, I'll have a suss and see what I can find out.
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:38   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsn48
I have had a lot of chafe on my shore lines and today I was talking with a chap who had over come the chafing problem. Basically on the eye bolts he attaches a heavy shackle, connected to a thimble on the bow, stern and spring lines. I was going through two sets of lines (windy area in the fall, winter and spring) with my boat in a year; he has been using the same lines for around 6 years now. I guess if a shackle and thimble is good enough for an anchor, its good enough for shore lines.
We splice a loop into the end of our marina lines and then reeve them onto the dock loop/eye/thing. At the first good blow the boat pulls these tight and you get zero movement hence zero wear. Less damage to the marina as well also a lot quieter and less rust.

Reeving = put the spliced loop thru the eye on the dock and pass the other end of the rope thru the loop, pull tight so it pulls firm onto the eye.
That explanation understandable ??

We also keep our marina lines firm enough that you can get the loop on and off the boats cleat but not real easy. Again less movement = less rope wear. We see a lot with lots of movement and it just beats the rope up.

We like fitting the ropes to the boat with a splice eye. No worries about re-positioning all the time, Mum or the kids can do it without being yelled at , makes short handed docking a lot easier.

As mentioned above we use a Polyester. If you have big wind and big wave action maybe think Nylon. Big wind and no waves go polyester.

Marina lines are a more permenant thing where Dock lines stay on the boat for rafting up, stopping for fuel (if you don't have a real boat that is ) and so on. Termimology (and spelling) can differ around the world.

Macca on marina lines
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Old 07-08-2006, 10:17   #27
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Eye bolts?? What do you moor or tie off to up in BC? I noticed up north of you that a lot of docks have (for lack of a better word) slots in them to pass dock lines through, no metal hardware, no cleats, which is very different from the US where double-horn cleats are the norm for small craft. But plain eye bolts??? That would tend to maximize chafe on a line, at least a cleat spreads it a bit, I think.

GMac-
"Assuming you want a rope to last a long time, which is the cheapest rope to buy?" I have two old friends, one went to U of Chicago business school for his MBA, the other to Harvard Biz for his. As a result I sometimes got exposed to MBA-speak from two guys who also happened to have very good brains for business, so I smile when I say "Well, the cheapest one is the cheapst one, ten dollars!" Ain't it the sad truth that's how business is USUALLY run these days. Screw the shareholders, the ten dollar rope will put the best bottom line of this week's P&L statement, right? (sigh)
Me, I'll buy the $25 line and hope no one steals it. And probably have to order it by mail order since any shop trying to sell it will not stock it, because the average buyer says "It costs too much, it's all the same rope." Ahuh.

Reeving: That's how I'll use a double horn cleat if I can. But if all he's got are eye bolts...unless someone bought BIG bolts with BIG eyes....it won't fit through.
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Old 08-08-2006, 00:16   #28
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G'day again,

Gotta love Business school gratuates, makes life for silly ol dumbarses with no training like myself so much easier. As I don't know what I'm doing I just use common sense which beats 'Energise your systematic supply chain organisations synergies' and completely understandable stuff like that. I'd use 'pull finger and ship it or your arse is grass' Well I think it means something similar

The flash nylon I was refering too is a Samson Pro-set. Being in the US you're lucky to have so many quality manufacturers, for the mean time anyway. I don't think I have every seen a US made rope I did not like, prices excluded. Oh.. maybe a slight issue with the Yale 8 Octiplait, they should have copied better.

Reeving onto an eyebolt should be fine once the rope is locked off. Hopefully you have a big hole.

Got a pile of differing ropes and a bottle of sunscreen today. Will be interesting to see what if anything happens. I asked a few old hands what they thought and many have heard about it but don't know any results. Could be a bit of urban legend stuff, maybe. I'll let you know what we find out.
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Old 09-08-2006, 11:50   #29
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Quality bungees

Until reading this thread I hadn't spent mental energy thinking about bungees. Last season I used several "cheapo" bungees on deck for various things. They were destroyed in a few months, even those stowed in a dorade receiving only indirect sunlight.

On the other hand, there is still a bungee that was tied onto the boat when I bought her over 7 years ago and, although frayed and worn from use, it is still functional even tho placed in direct sunlight. The cover is black and probably polyester. The core must be good as well. Soooo, where does one get good quality bungees? I noticed also that it is not necessary to go the extra step and get S/S hooks as long as the hook has a good paint job.
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Old 09-08-2006, 12:15   #30
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Rick, we also have some old bungees that just keep on working. Thick ones like you get in the auto luggage shelves, that are cheaters to keep the halyards from slapping. (I heard the UN has ratified a new global regulation making it legal to slash and burn slapping halyards, and take the boat as a war prize.<G>)

But the ones that keep punking out at thinner...around 1/4", that lay horizontal and are worked to double their resting length for the genoa cars. So, they are worked much harder, and I'm sure they accumulate salt crystals from being down closer to the water. (Heck, I know they get dunked at times.<G>)

Where does one get good bungee...From the Bungee Faerie ?

Yathink the problem is that the launch driver won't take wierdos in tutus with wands out late at night?<G>
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