Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-06-2015, 21:41   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Everyone,
Has anyone heard of a case of a bronze turnbuckle failing? Looking at an allied sea breeze that is on the great lakes. It appears to have original rigging. I am certainly going to replace the cable and get new fittings, but I am wondering if I can re-use the bronze turnbuckles.

Looking for real knowledge here not the "just be safe response"

Everything I read talks about stainless failing due to corrosion. It would seem bronze is quiet better at resisting this.

Bear in mind, these are not in contact with the water, so I wouldn't think that they would "de-zinc" in the presence of an ungrounded circuit.
__________________

__________________
theller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 23:09   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 3,914
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Have bronze turnbuckles on my old islander and I still trust them don't see any corrosion on them at all
__________________

__________________
newhaul is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2015, 23:26   #3
Sponsoring Vendor
 
HopCar's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Miami Florida
Boat: Ellis Flybridge 28
Posts: 3,153
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Nothing wrong with properly sized bronze turnbuckles. Inspect them carefully before you use them. Bronze is softer than stainless so it can wear faster. Examine the pins and clevises for wear.

Bronze doesn't de zinc as it has very little zinc in it. That's why it's the most popular metal for underwater use. Electrolysis can destroy any metal but that shouldn't be a problem with turnbuckles.
__________________
Hopkins-Carter Marine Supplies & Fishing Tackle
What You Need, at the Price You Want...with Service!
HopCar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 02:25   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Novato, California
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 262
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Testing the condition of bronze turnbuckles - SailNet Community
Posted by Senior Member RichH on 05-04-2001
Testing the condition of bronze turnbuckles
The BEST inspection is done by taking the rigging to one who has the magnetic field (Magnaflux®) analysis equipment. The next best is to remove the rigging and use a specialized dye penetrant, also from Magnaflux. I would NOT do this on the boat .... a degreaser, a dye, and a developer. Macroscopic cracks due to embrittlement failure (cold working) will show as faint red lines on the developer. I think West Marine also sells the dye system. OR... go to a Magnaflux distributor, be super polite, etc. ... and they just might give you a "freebee" small sample/demo kit that would be enough to do a moderate sized sailboat.
Otherwise, simply clean (but dont polish) the terminal ends and inspect carefully by eyeball or with a magnifying glass, etc. ... for visible "teeny" cracks (not deformations due to swaging), especially those running longitudinally (lengthwise) on the fitting or those across the end from where the cable inserts to the outside surface of the connection. Hope this helps.
__________________
kentobin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 04:55   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Ken, you sound like an engineer. For some reason i blanked out on NDE.

Your response got me thinking that perhaps they could be annealed and hardened once again.

The problem is I don't know what alloy of bronze would have been used in 1965. Any ideas?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
theller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:44   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Novato, California
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 262
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Sorry I've worked on computer systems professionally for over 30 years. I'm retired now and still spend way to much time in front of the monitor when I should be working on my boat.

I know a really knowledgeable surveyor. I'll give him a call and see what he thinks. Only problem is I never know when he'll pick up. I talked to him about refitting with bronze over stainless and he felt that so little bronze is being used and made today that you have no idea of it provenance and would need to have every piece tested for the quality of the material.

You might try posting on SparTalk - Powered by vBulletin. If you're not familiar with this message board it is part of the website of Brion Toss a well known rigger based in Port Townsend, WA and author of The Complete Rigger's Apprentice: Tools and Techniques for Modern and Traditional Rigging

I did a cursory search on Brion's website and came up with this:
Bronze Stem Head Fitting Inspection - SparTalk
Old 04-14-2015, 09:00 AM
First, are you certain that it is bronze? Many allegedly bronze fittings are actually brass, including those made of "naval bronze" and "manganese bronze."
Second, while bronze is much more fatigue-resistant than stainless, it will harden in time. If this is an old fitting, used regularly, it might need to be annealed.
Third, bronze is less noble than stainless, so a prime place to check for galvanic action is under fasteners.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Time to finish my morning coffee. :-)

Good luck on your quest.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	boat1.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	74.0 KB
ID:	103091  
__________________
kentobin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:54   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

l can think of two methods to figure out the brass bronze question. We have a hardness tester at work and a friend of mine could probably throw it under a scanning election microscope in scatter mode and get me an exact composition.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
theller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:55   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

I only work that the hardness test may make a stress concentrator where it indents the material.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
theller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:57   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

For that matter, a hardness test on any brass hardware would give you enough data to determine if the material is up to snuff. I don't imagine it would be case hardened. I understand marine bronze to be temp hardened below the annealing temp

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
theller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 19:40   #10
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theller View Post
Everyone,
Has anyone heard of a case of a bronze turnbuckle failing? Looking at an allied sea breeze that is on the great lakes. It appears to have original rigging. I am certainly going to replace the cable and get new fittings, but I am wondering if I can re-use the bronze turnbuckles.

Looking for real knowledge here not the "just be safe response"

Everything I read talks about stainless failing due to corrosion. It would seem bronze is quiet better at resisting this.

Bear in mind, these are not in contact with the water, so I wouldn't think that they would "de-zinc" in the presence of an ungrounded circuit.
Mine are 1984. Good as new. There is usually a large amount of thread engaged so the wear is reduced as is the stress on the threads. I lube mine with nickel or copper Never-Seize.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 22:34   #11
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

About 1/2 of our turnbuckles are 5/8" Merriman ones installed 3 owners ago in 1969 timeframe. The rest are either 80's era bronze and a couple new ones. All are sound, threads good (we use Lanolin or Lanicote on the threads) We did have to replace all bronze chainplates with our 2007-2009 rebuild of the boat but not the turnbuckles. Fair winds.
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 23:03   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,002
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

If there are no cracks after cleaning and a careful inspection and the cleaned threads are tight without much wobble, the turnbuckles are probably good to go for another 40 years. Bronze in fresh water is virtually forever.

I ditched the newish SS turnbuckles for used Merman turnbuckles with toggles. Way more confidence in the bronze than SS.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2015, 15:23   #13
Registered User
 
Orion Jim's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Noank, Ct. USA
Boat: Cape Dory 31
Posts: 1,072
Images: 6
Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

My boat is an 84. I replaced all my standing rigging 4 or 5 years ago but I reused my original bronze turnbuckles. They were just tested on a passage from New England to Bermuda a week ago and passed with flying colors!
__________________

__________________
Orion Jim is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Want To Buy: bronze open body turnbuckles 5/8" & 1/2" pressuredrop Classifieds Archive 2 30-09-2012 15:16
For Sale or Trade: 1/2" Merriman Bronze Turnbuckles thesparrow Classifieds Archive 3 23-05-2012 15:14
For Sale: Bronze Turnbuckles dc83 Classifieds Archive 0 14-10-2011 20:09
Bronze Turnbuckles soulfullspirit Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 5 23-09-2011 05:32
For Sale or Trade: Bronze Ports, Turnbuckles, Seacocks & More thesparrow Classifieds Archive 2 03-09-2011 19:37



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.