Cutting Up Closer To The Wind - How To Get My Ketch Rig Sharper?

[charliehows]

The problem i have (I think) is with my present jib overlapping the crosstrees when i try close hauling - the sheet runs outside the rig limiting the extent to which i can trim the headsail hard in. I'm thinking about getting another jib and cutting it to allow the sheet to run inside the mainmast rigging - something more like a yankee, so i can trim it in harder and maybe get a few more degrees upwind. Is it worth the effort, do you think?

[charliehows]

Sorry for not mentioning - I've recently replaced both main and mizzen with fully battened sails which are a joy to behold - but i feel that the jib is letting them down...

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by charliehows

Sorry for not mentioning - I've recently replaced both main and mizzen with fully battened sails which are a joy to behold - but i feel that the jib is letting them down...

Hi if you have just replaced two sails I figure that the sailmaker involved would probably give you some good advice regarding the jib.

[JPA Cate]

If the sail is old, ask your sailmaker what he or she would advise to help the boat sail closer to the wind more effectively, and treat yourself and the boat to yet another new sail. Sails deteriorate so slowly that one doesn't usually see it happening, especially if you don't know what to look for. For that, the sailmaker's your professor, sort of.

Ketches are not generally set up to be close-winded. It's not fair to her or yourself to suggest that she should sail as close as a race boat.

[osirissail]

I generally consider any sail that overlap the main mast a "genoa" and any sail that when fully deployed does not extend past the main mast a "jib" or one of the various versions of jibs like a Yankee.

That said if your sail does not or is rolled in enough so that it does not overlap the main mast then you can use a spare line with a "snatch block" attached to a cleat on the main mast to temporarily replace the jib sheet that runs outside the "shrouds" that hold up the main mast.

The temporary line runs from the clew to the main mast snatch block and then back to the cockpit for trimming. This will bring the sail inside the shrouds so that you can get some good shape on the sail when closer to the wind.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I generally consider any sail that overlap the main mast a "genoa" and any sail that when fully deployed does not extend past the main mast a "jib" or one of the various versions of jibs like a Yankee.

That said if your sail does not or is rolled in enough so that it does not overlap the main mast then you can use a spare line with a "snatch block" attached to a cleat on the main mast to temporarily replace the jib sheet that runs outside the "shrouds" that hold up the main mast.

The temporary line runs from the clew to the main mast snatch block and then back to the cockpit for trimming. This will bring the sail inside the shrouds so that you can get some good shape on the sail when closer to the wind.

cant, inside the rig she fouls on the shrouds. I figure it being a ketch the main mast is a little further forward so shorter J distance. But shes quite light and the keel is fin and skeg so she ought to go up pretty hard. Is getting the jib rigged in closer to the mast an advantage in pointing - I thought so but im open to other opinions...

[charliehows]

ann, uncle bob - thanks for input - i have to admit my 'new' main and mizzen are 2nd hand sails - the main used to be a mizzen on a much bigger boat than mine but fits perfectly, and the mizzen is off - some little whizzy cat probably - works really well after a bit of remodelling on me sewing machine...so i dont really have a sailmaker to ask...but as above - shes quite light and the keel is fin and skeg so she ought to go up pretty hard. Is getting the jib rigged in closer to the mast an advantage in pointing - I thought so but im open to other opinions...

[neilpride]

Its posible, i guess you have wide spreaders and outboard chainplates? where is the Jib track located? last week we made some modifications in a bene 50 rig, we set a inner forestay , fabricate a chainplate and install a couple of tracks in top of the cabin coachroof, it work with well with a solent , staysail.... actually you can have 2 sails , a large genoa working outboard the shrouds and a solent or spade jib short enough to be tight for upwind work in a couple of inboard tracks, its a funny project!!! cheers.

[kbudd]

Anything you can do to get the jib sheeting angle inboard will help with pointing. I use a small jib when going up wind and barber haul the clew inboard.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by charliehows

cant, inside the rig she fouls on the shrouds. I figure it being a ketch the main mast is a little further forward so shorter J distance. But shes quite light and the keel is fin and skeg so she ought to go up pretty hard. Is getting the jib rigged in closer to the mast an advantage in pointing - I thought so but im open to other opinions...

You may have skipped my paragraph "That said if your sail does not or is rolled in enough so that it does not overlap the main mast then you can use a spare line with a "snatch block" attached to a cleat on the main mast to temporarily replace the jib sheet that runs outside the "shrouds" that hold up the main mast.

Then your sail's clew is forward of the mast and shrouds and there is no overlap involved. Therefore, the sail can be pulled inside the shrouds using a spare line and snatch block. In this case the original sheets are not not used and become "lazy sheets."

Being able to point closer to the wind is mainly a matter of keeping the sails filled with air and "pulling" or providing power to move the boat. However, when you get close to the wind, the shape and cut of the sails can make a major difference in the amount of "power" you can get out of them.

All three sails are "in play" with the jib actually channeling air flow over the tightly sheeted in main sail. Since the rolled in or smaller jib is now smaller than the main sail it is not providing much power but is important in directing air flow over the much larger main sail.

Unfortunately, by the time the air flow gets past the main sail it has been redirected to be right down the centerline of the boat. Thusly, the mizzen sail does not get any air flow that can be useful in providing power. In effect as you get closer to the wind the boat - as far as the sails are concerned - becomes more of a sloop than a ketch in that the mizzen is useless.

[Hudson Force]

It's difficult to imagine all the particulars of your rig; however, it might be to your advantage to sheet the jib on a club foot.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by kbudd

Anything you can do to get the jib sheeting angle inboard will help with pointing. I use a small jib when going up wind and barber haul the clew inboard.

thanks for hitting the nub of the question - thats what i've been thinking. Thanks to other input also - my rig is unusual in a couple of ways - there is a pretty significant space between the end of the main boom and the mizzen - maybe 6 feet - which i think helps the mizzen keep pulling its weight right up to the wind. Up forward theres a roller furled genoa and about a foot inside is a second forestay for hanked on jibs. I dont like using the genoa rolled - i think its abit too light, i prefer to run up a jib if sizing down - but my main jib is just a bit longer than the j length so it cant come inside the shrouds. Now i'm thinking maybe put a track in front of the mast and cut a jib that fits in as a self tacker. Thanks all.

[Zach]

If you run a self tacker, you may want to have a track car so you can bring it inboard.

If the track is "wide" enough to hold the jib down and shaped well on a run, it is wider than you want when close hauled, so the jib has to be hauled back in.

The higher cut the jib the more you'll notice it, you'll sheet it in tighter and it'll just flatten out and not move inboard.

Zach

[psk125]

You can do all sorts of things to point higher, but it may not mean getting to windward any faster. A sailmaker could make sails for you that could fill at 10º off the wind, but you'd only move at .00001 knots: not very good. Your vmg to windward might be better if you were to head off with your current jib and move at six knots, and make up for the lack of pointing ability by tacking later. A "light' boat is a relative thing. Ours, at 36' and about 22000 pounds, is pretty heavy compared to some of our competitors that weigh less and are 4' longer. A "light" Roberts 38 sounds like an oxymoron.

[FlightPlan]

Originally Posted by kbudd

Anything you can do to get the jib sheeting angle inboard will help with pointing. I use a small jib when going up wind and barber haul the clew inboard.

kbudd has it right according to my thinking and experience. However, you may have to add a Cunningham to the main to flatten it when you barber haul the jib.