Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-11-2012, 11:10   #31
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: US/MX West coast
Posts: 465
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

One thing I've discovered recently is that we can buy up surplus sails from production runs that were done for boatbuilders like Catalina, Beneteau, Hanse, Hunter, and a few others. Those are new factory sails that weren't used due to the slowdown in the economy. Those can be a great opportunity for people with that particular boat or something really close. As an example, someone with a Beneteau 373, 393, or 423 could get a new Classic (battened) main or a furling main for a 473 for around $1200. We've made some people very happy with surplus sails and best of all it's a brand new sail that will last for years.
__________________

__________________
islandplanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 11:18   #32
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: US/MX West coast
Posts: 465
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
These comments and more in your post are reasons to be skeptical of advice from old cruisers like myself. Younger cruisers are likely far more aware of the evolving divergence in comparing cruising sails and racing sails. I continue to draw upon my sailing and sail purchasing experiences from present to times back to three or four decades in the past. I well remember times when a used sail from a racing boat would be very adequate on a cruising boat,- particularly from the casual weekend racer with racing sails of moderate expense. There is likely still a window remaining were lower tech sails of those racing could be well used by cruisers, but I expect the advise from Islandplanet is correct and the window is closing. Still, there remains some excellent deals in the used sail market for cruising sails for those that carefully shop the inventories.
There will still be some opportunities but often people don't take all factors into consideration when buying a used sail. There is certainly a much wider disparity between some of today's race boats and those of a few decades back. You and I have been sailing for a similar period of time. So we go back to an era pre-dating common ULDB's and sport boats. The boats were a lot different. The Whitbread used to be raced in relatively heavy ketches. ULDB's were not prevalent and the sport boat era had not begun. There was a lot more commonality between the race boat and the family boat. These days, not so much.
__________________

__________________
islandplanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 11:27   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
Rick,

Maybe you can educate us on why you think US made sails are inherently superior to those made in Asia.

I agree that there is a significant issue when you have an "agent" who has never worked in a sail loft. Design and specifications are critical and most of the Asian lofts that use agents with no real sailmaking knowledge make all the design and production decisions for that agent. A more pertinent question than where the sails are made is who is doing the design work and who specifies all the details.
Probably true, but the asian sails I have seen are very cheaply done, very little chafe protection, reinforcing and undersize cringles etc. Then again, if a well made sail had a US name on it but made in asia to their spec, I guess I wouldnt know!
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 11:53   #34
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: US/MX West coast
Posts: 465
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Probably true, but the asian sails I have seen are very cheaply done, very little chafe protection, reinforcing and undersize cringles etc. Then again, if a well made sail had a US name on it but made in asia to their spec, I guess I wouldnt know!
It all goes back to what I've previously said about design and who specifies the details. When I have a sail built, I specify the exact type of ring, how many pieces of webbing are used to attach it, how long those pieces of webbing need to be, and what type of webbing is to be used. The radial corner patches are of our own design and we specify the size. Actually we cheat a bit because the computer works that out for us but we define the parameters.
__________________
islandplanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 11:57   #35
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
............You can hoist a fine linen on the mast and get something, but it's not going to work like a purposely made sail for your rig...................You can buy a blue tarp, with a little magic from a Sailrite, make something that works, but probably isn't what most people are looking for..................James L
Fine linen & blue tarps? I don't think you are familiar with the used sail market opportunities. I'm not speaking of buying something from a photo on eBay. There are used sail suppliers that have a codified inventory by manufacturer, cloth type, weight, condition, and precise measurements. As well as a return option after a trial fit. Sure, someone can foolishly buy a sail that is not proper for their rig, but that doesn't discount the opportunity for knowledgeable person making a wise purchase and saving a considerable amount of money. Your argument sounds like the reasoning of someone who is in the business of selling new.
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 12:05   #36
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
Fine linen & blue tarps? I don't think you are familiar with the used sail market opportunities. I'm not speaking of buying something from a photo on eBay. There are used sail suppliers that have a codified inventory by manufacturer, cloth type, weight, condition, and precise measurements. As well as a return option after a trial fit. Sure, someone can foolishly buy a sail that is not proper for their rig, but that doesn't discount the opportunity for knowledgeable person making a wise purchase and saving a considerable amount of money. Your argument sounds like the reasoning of someone who is in the business of selling new.
No, I was comparing used racing sails that someone doesn't know the specifics of it's use.

I wasn't addressing used sails that would mate with a specific rig. There is a difference.

There are many people, well at least a few that I've met, that do sail, and can not tell if a sail will or will not work on their boat. Yes of course it will probably work, to some degree, but that is the issue I see.

If the sail wasn't designed for your setup, it probably isn't going to be close to optimum, new or otherwise.

For example, I have been educated that a %135-155 genoa on a Hunter Vision 36 is basically burning money. This is due to the setup, not the sail. The sail would be great on a 35.5 Legend (only an example.....the actual dimensional difference I didn't research for this post). This is used or new.

Just because those purple bell bottoms fit, doesn't mean you should wear them.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 12:27   #37
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

James L, 'sounds like we agree that sails need to fit properly in order to function well. ...'no brainer!
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 12:52   #38
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
James L, 'sounds like we agree that sails need to fit properly in order to function well. ...'no brainer!
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 13:34   #39
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,317
Images: 91
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

I will echo Jim Cate's sentiments that, regardless of where the sail is actually built, it helps to deal with somebody local, face to face. Somebody who can come to your boat and physically measure up for the sail (with you) and somebody with whom you can discuss your requirements / expectations. In the last 4 years or so, we have purchased 4 new sails (main, genoa, working jib, heavy weather jib) and in each case have used a local sailmaker (who actually makes the sails in his loft). We could have got cheaper sails; yes, but we have yet to be disappointed in our purchases.
__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 14:04   #40
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
I will echo Jim Cate's sentiments that, regardless of where the sail is actually built, it helps to deal with somebody local, face to face. Somebody who can come to your boat and physically measure up for the sail (with you) and somebody with whom you can discuss your requirements / expectations. In the last 4 years or so, we have purchased 4 new sails (main, genoa, working jib, heavy weather jib) and in each case have used a local sailmaker (who actually makes the sails in his loft). We could have got cheaper sails; yes, but we have yet to be disappointed in our purchases.
I'm a firm believer in the "made in, sweat by, sewn by, fabricated by, has children in, father lived in, the good ole USA"

This is not to knock the sail makers who use offshore lofts. This isn't about quality for me. It's about putting back into our economy. I like the idea of employing my neighbors.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 17:54   #41
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,317
Images: 91
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
I I like the idea of employing my neighbors.

James L
Bravo!
__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 19:47   #42
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: US/MX West coast
Posts: 465
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

I've had customers tell me they wanted to buy American so they went with another loft. I didn't have the heart to tell them after the fact that the sail they were convinced was being made locally wasn't. If you really want a locally made sail, ask to visit when the sail is being broadseamed.

How many people make it a point to buy American made clothes to support the American garment industry?
__________________
islandplanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 19:55   #43
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
I've had customers tell me they wanted to buy American so they went with another loft. I didn't have the heart to tell them after the fact that the sail they were convinced was being made locally wasn't. If you really want a locally made sail, ask to visit when the sail is being broadseamed.

How many people make it a point to buy American made clothes to support the American garment industry?
I understand that some people "think" they are getting a sail made in an American loft, but are not.

I will make sure my sail is totally made in America, even if I must make surprise visits.

I can't however insure the fabric for the sail was made in America, that is just not really possible.

IP, I think you must provide a good service, and I understand your reasoning for doing the things you do. I am a business owner, so I do understand.

But to get the US back on track, we will need many, many, many more people that will only buy products made here. Those people will have to personally verify the item to be truly 100% made in the USA.

And I appreciate the information about the visit during broadseaming. That will definitely come in handy.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 20:15   #44
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,005
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

I bought a full set of sails from Mack 4 years ago. Great price and excellent service even though they were on the other side of the country from boat and me. To correct one small problem, they just told me to take them to a local loft in California and send them the bill. AFAIK They make the sales in their loft in Florida. The sails have performed well, good shape and have held up great including TransPac.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2012, 20:56   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Camper & Nicholsons 38
Posts: 33
Re: Cost for replacement sails?

A few years ago we bought sails from a "local loft" (Seattle) of a major US manufacturer. The person from the loft came out, measured the boat, and gave us a good quote - about this time of year most of them have good sales. Anyway, long story short, the sails were terrible, they did not fit the boat. The genoa was too short, the main too long and with a horribly long roach that would hang up on the backstay in light winds.

After a very difficult interaction with the loft, they begrudgingly agreed to perform a roachectomy on the main, and to add some length to the genoa - which was a radial cut sail, so really the only way to lengthen it was to remake it, but they point blank refused. Of course, the result is not pretty. I curse them often....

They also used cheap manufacturing methods - so this winter we're taking them to a local sailmaker (Hasse in Port Townsend) and having them improve the sails. Not much they can do about the bad basics, but all the missing chafe protection can be added, the weak slugs can be replaced and attached to rings (bulls?) instead of just stitched to the sail (several are already failing). The leech was made with a wimpy 1 inch "wing" (dacron tape folded over and stitched down) and that will be reinforced with more serious stuff. Also, the edge seams were single stitched, so we're getting another line of stitches all round. The list goes on and on....

The cost for all these upgrades is about 30% of the original cost of the sails. Thank goodness the quality of the cloth seems good.

Moral of this is that if you are working with the "local loft" of the largest sail maker in the world, you are actually just working with a front and they may just be interested in sales targets. Instead, if you work with a "local loft" who take pride in their sails, it will cost you more, but you will be happier, and it may save you money in the long run. Next time, that's what I'll do.

Van
__________________

__________________
afmstm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sails

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.