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Old 18-07-2017, 12:27   #46
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
What he said.
Thanks. The terms still don't make much sense sometimes .

I am working with 2mm cord, so a loose Turk's head that could be moved up and down (to keep the cow hitch secure) would be miniscule. I imagine it would work well with thicker cord, a bit like the Scouts use as neck tie clasps.
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Old 18-07-2017, 12:32   #47
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Do you have any favourites amongst the ones you tied? Also any combinations that work well together? I am searching for inspiration.
It really depends on the application. Since there are a lot of railings which get covered with knot work, & for the majority of their length any of the simpler patterns work well. It's at the ends where you get creative, & fancy.

The part that's the biggest pain is working with such long pieces of small diameter cordage, even if they're done up in tidy bundles. Because it can take dozens of yard of line, or even much, much more, to fully cover some railings.

And then... someone decides to call General Quarters (Battle Stations) when you're at some critical juncture. Which leaves your work only half way done when your watch ends. So do you stay up late & finish it, or grab some chow & a nap prior to your next watch, leaving a half done mess somewhere highly visible on the bridge?

Funny thing though. Even now, in "modern" times, carrying a knife & flashlight 24/7 on a 10,000 ton warship is endlessly useful. Just like on a sailboat. Regardless of one's rank or job.


FWIW, I always use one of the below linked, bronze snap shackles for the end of the lanyard that attaches the lanyard to me. They're easy to open with one hand.
Just loop them under your belt, & back over it, before snapping them onto the lanyard itself. It's much more secure than just clipping them to a belt loop.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-...03?recordNum=1
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Old 18-07-2017, 13:11   #48
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
The part that's the biggest pain is working with such long pieces of small diameter cordage, even if they're done up in tidy bundles. Because it can take dozens of yard of line, or even much, much more, to fully cover some railings.
I badly underestimated the amount of cord needed .
I cut 6m for this last lanyard I made (6 strands of 1m). It was clear I was going to run out before I reached the length I needed to put my hand through the loop, so I needed to finish with some simple flat braid. It messed up my design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
FWIW, I always use one of the below linked, bronze snap shackles for the end of the lanyard that attaches the lanyard to me. They're easy to open with one hand.
Just loop them under your belt, & back over it, before snapping them onto the lanyard itself. It's much more secure than just clipping them to a belt loop.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-...03?recordNum=1
I was thinking lightweight aluminium carabiners may work well. The hardware in a nearby town here sells some, so I thought I may buy a few next time we cycle down there. Have you tried these?
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Old 18-07-2017, 13:36   #49
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

This is my near finished second camera lanyard, worts and all .

I don't know what to do with the 2 tails, other than cutting them a bit shorter and melting the ends. Any suggestions from anyone?

Main things that went wrong or that I think I could have done better:
- Loop left for cow hitch could have been a bit shorter (therefore neater)
- I didn't allow enough cord, so I had to cut short the more intricate weave
- No idea what to do with the tails

Useful things learned:
- Use lots more cord than expected. It is inexpensive and a small amount wasted is no big deal. Far worse to get 3/4 the way through and find you have not cut enough.
- I decided I don't like flat braids much, the tension in the simple 3 strand braid was difficult to keep even, as it was in the French sinnet yesterday. A real PITA in fact. Tip: at the end, pressing the weave with some pliers helped even it out .
- The centres of Double Lanyard (Diamond Knots) are an excellent spot to incorporate more strands or hide the tails of some of the strands (4 of 6 in this case).
- This reinforced my like of the Matthew Walker, Half-Round sinnet, multiple Crown knots (6 and 3 strand were both good here) and Double Lanyard.

The second image shows one of the Matthew Walkers in detail. I think I have really nailed this one now :
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Old 18-07-2017, 16:52   #50
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I don't know what to do with the 2 tails, other than cutting them a bit shorter and melting the ends. Any suggestions from anyone?
:
Is there enough left for a button knot? If so snip the remaining tail off after finishing.
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Old 18-07-2017, 17:15   #51
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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I will record the best online directions if anyone would like to give these knots a go.
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Old 18-07-2017, 18:05   #52
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
.....
I don't know what to do with the 2 tails, other than cutting them a bit shorter and melting the ends. Any suggestions from anyone?

.......:
Tie 'em together with a granny knot









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Old 18-07-2017, 18:57   #53
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I badly underestimated the amount of cord needed .
I cut 6m for this last lanyard I made (6 strands of 1m). It was clear I was going to run out before I reached the length I needed to put my hand through the loop, so I needed to finish with some simple flat braid. It messed up my design.
I know that there are calculation tables around for estimating the amount of line needed, though at the moment where to find them escapes me. An online search might work, as might consulting with a ship's Bosun' & or a Navy Bosun/Boatswain's Mate Instructor. And one other resource would be shops & online resources for macrame. Since that art is comprised entirely of knotwork, & it's where I got some of my start doing the stuff as a young kid.

I was thinking lightweight aluminium carabiners may work well. The hardware in a nearby town here sells some, so I thought I may buy a few next time we cycle down there. Have you tried these?
My experience with aluminum around the water when it comes to hardware is that it fairs pretty poorly. Even when rinsed frequently. A topic discussed, reinforcing my opinions in a recent thread on lifeline tethers.
Even with hardcoat anodizing, or Milspec Type-III, which is super, super tough, it just doesn't hold up well.
As to starting out projects with pieces of cordage which wind up being "too long", can you ever have too much/many pieces of short, small diameter cordage onboard a boat? If so I've yet to know of one

Regarding what to do with the bitter ends of the cordage, you could always drill partial depth holes through a pair of dice, & epoxy the ends into them. Or do the same, but with something more nautical or meaningful (to you or your other half).

Oh, & on the loop where the lanyard goes through the bail on the camera, it's obviously a bit late to suggest sleeving the cordage with a piece of larger diameter cover (or heat shrink tubing), to aid with chafe resistance, as much as anything else. But you could always loop it through again, thus forming a Prusik Knot. That would both help to shorten up the loop, & to minimize wear on the lanyard from the stainless bail.

Also, you might want to "ease" the edges of the bail on the camera with some fine sand paper or a nail file. Otherwise the squared metal edges can be hard on cordage.
And if anyone has the appropriate color of Maxi Jacket, coating the high wear areas of the loop couldn't hurt... much. Test it out on a piece of spare line first.

I've even gone so far as to serve small diameter cordage where it goes around fittings, very tightly, with tough, UV resistant, synthetic thread. You can use a sedate, un-noticed color, or something bright & contrasting. Such as pink in this case, to match the tracer color in the lanyard cordage.
Note that depending on how tightly you serve things, & the spacing between the strands of serving, it can stiffen things up quite a bit. Thus making the loop less flexible.

I tend to favor using a half hitch for each turn of "serving", reversing the direction of the hitch each time. So that the "seam" in it is straight. Where as if you hitch in the same direction each time, it turns into a spiral. Or you can use 2 pieces of thread to serve things with, & have 2 opposing "seams", either in straight lines, a double spiral, a helix (I think). The patterns are endless, much like the knot work used for the lanyard.

And occassionally I'll cheat, by securing the knots or seams in the thread work with super glue or a urethane. Even varnish. That way it's less likely to come undone if one or two strands wears through.
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Old 18-07-2017, 23:40   #54
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Is there enough left for a button knot? If so snip the remaining tail off after finishing.
Excellent suggestion. Thanks.
There wasn't enough cord left, but I undid the last Diamond and tied Brion's Button instead. It was a perfect finish I think, not too bulky, with three knots tapering in size nicely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Tie 'em together with a granny knot
Is there a fish slap emoji?
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Old 18-07-2017, 23:46   #55
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
As to starting out projects with pieces of cordage which wind up being "too long", can you ever have too much/many pieces of short, small diameter cordage onboard a boat? If so I've yet to know of one

Regarding what to do with the bitter ends of the cordage, you could always drill partial depth holes through a pair of dice, & epoxy the ends into them. Or do the same, but with something more nautical or meaningful (to you or your other half).

Oh, & on the loop where the lanyard goes through the bail on the camera, it's obviously a bit late to suggest sleeving the cordage with a piece of larger diameter cover (or heat shrink tubing), to aid with chafe resistance, as much as anything else. But you could always loop it through again, thus forming a Prusik Knot. That would both help to shorten up the loop, & to minimize wear on the lanyard from the stainless bail.

Also, you might want to "ease" the edges of the bail on the camera with some fine sand paper or a nail file. Otherwise the squared metal edges can be hard on cordage.
And if anyone has the appropriate color of Maxi Jacket, coating the high wear areas of the loop couldn't hurt... much. Test it out on a piece of spare line first.

I've even gone so far as to serve small diameter cordage where it goes around fittings, very tightly, with tough, UV resistant, synthetic thread. You can use a sedate, un-noticed color, or something bright & contrasting. Such as pink in this case, to match the tracer color in the lanyard cordage.
Note that depending on how tightly you serve things, & the spacing between the strands of serving, it can stiffen things up quite a bit. Thus making the loop less flexible.

I tend to favor using a half hitch for each turn of "serving", reversing the direction of the hitch each time. So that the "seam" in it is straight. Where as if you hitch in the same direction each time, it turns into a spiral. Or you can use 2 pieces of thread to serve things with, & have 2 opposing "seams", either in straight lines, a double spiral, a helix (I think). The patterns are endless, much like the knot work used for the lanyard.

And occassionally I'll cheat, by securing the knots or seams in the thread work with super glue or a urethane. Even varnish. That way it's less likely to come undone if one or two strands wears through.
All super helpful information (apart from the dice ). Thanks.

I agree my loop at the end would have been stronger had I thickened it up by tying half hitches around it, or even just braiding it, as was done for Brion's knife lanyard. The bail on the camera was unfortunately too narrow to shove anything other than a sqaushed 2mm cord through. Bad design!

I have never used glue, but I find a dab of clear nail polish also secures ends well and tidies up the frayed ends nicely.

SWL
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Old 19-07-2017, 00:33   #56
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

For Gamayun and anyone else wanting to try their hand at this:

Instructions for the camera lanyard

MATERIALS
-6m x 2mm double braid polyester cut in 3 lengths (ends melted to seal) and doubled over to give 6 x 1m lengths
If using polyester, pick one that is soft to handle. The 2 spools of 3mm I bought recently were wrapped in plastic and then found to be so stiff that they are unusable as is. Uncivilised's suggestion of pulling out the core helped tremendously, but it is still hard work weaving it. I will try his suggestion of washing it next to remove any coatings, otherwise it will just be left for general purpose use.

I have just ordered some paracord. This is nylon and the majority of knot work I have seen online seems to be done using this. It looks soft and pliable, bends and sits wherever you place it and tightens up easily without stressing wrists. Its slight elasticity looks advantageous as well. Its strength is similar to polyester, but it does not wear as well (less chafe resistant in particular). It should wear adequately for what I need.

-Scissors
-Lighter for melting the ends
-Metal knitting needle to use as an awl for tightening (fingers and fingernails did a reasonable job for most of the knots)
-Tape measure
-Whipping twine
-(Pliers - helpful for flattening flat braid)
-(Clear nail polish or glue - may be helpful for sealing ends without having a blob of melted material)

Tip: Use constrictor knots to secure braids before starting a new knot. I tied each braid a bit longer than needed, then tied the constrictor at the correct length and unravelled back to it. That way the tension is excellent right up to the end.

METHOD
1. Halve one length. Tie a Double Lanyard knot and leave a 6cm loop at the end

It would strengthen the loop and the proportions would look much better if this loop was braided. The bail on the camera was just too narrow to push anything other than a single strand thickness through.
Before tightening the knot up, push the two extra lengths up the centre, pass them around the two legs of the loop for security and feed them back down the centre, giving you 6 strands to work with now.


2. Tie 5cm of 6 strand Half-Rounded sinnet.
I use Brion Toss's instructions for this easy braid. Arrange 6 strands so they lie next to each other in a flat line. It takes a bit of fiddling to get the order correct so that the weave integrates well as it comes out of the previous knot, you just have to play to achieve this. Same deal with any circular weave going to a flat one.
Take the far left strand under the adjacent 3 strands and then over the last of these 3. Repeat with the far right one, then left again, etc. Dead easy.


3. Tie a 6 strand Matthew Walker (same technique for any number of strands)



4. Divide into two lots of 3 and tie two 6cm of multiple Crown knots:
How to tie the crown knot - Paracord guild


5. Tie a 3 strand Matthew Walker at the end of each


6. At this point it was clear I was running out of line, so I tied 7cm of 3 strand flat braid (just a simple plait). Not fond of this for a straight bit. It is hard to get the tension right. Pressing it flat with pliers at the end helped a bit. It works really well for an end loop though, as any irregularities are hard to pick in a short, looped over section.


7. Tie both braids together with a constrictor knot and then tie another 6 strand Matthew Walker


8. Using 2 opposing strands tie another Double Lanyard knot. Before tightening it up, push the 4 remaining 4 strands through the centre, and cut to about 1cm. I melted the ends, but it would have sat better had I left them soft and fluffy. They end up hidden and there is no chance they can unravel back.


9. Tie Brion Toss's Button and snip the two ends off near the base (StuM's suggestion).
See post #4:
Instructions for Tying the High Strength Soft Shackle & Button Knot
I frayed out the ends dabbed them with clear nail polish to neaten and help secure them. A dab of glue as Uncivilised suggested may be even better.


Note: I am just winging it with much of this. Further suggestions or tips (or any good online resources) would be very appreciated. There must be lots of "tricks of the trade" that help make this easier or produce a better finish. To all the members who have responded so far, thanks for your help . It is much appreciated.

Happy knot tying .

SWL
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Old 19-07-2017, 11:33   #57
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Not very fancy, but I did run across this today...a Cobra/Lanyard Hitch (has a few other names too) on my new(er) rigging knife.

I wanted an eye at each end of this one so I fished slack in one line of the core to the middle (to get each eye the size I wanted), cut that line in half, half hitced the two halfs back together, buried the half hitch, then buried the ends. My thought was that would hold much like a splice...and it has.
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Old 19-07-2017, 16:49   #58
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

One of my spare knives. I really need to do something with the loop end though.
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Old 19-07-2017, 23:38   #59
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Not very fancy, but I did run across this today...a Cobra/Lanyard Hitch (has a few other names too) on my new(er) rigging knife.

I wanted an eye at each end of this one so I fished slack in one line of the core to the middle (to get each eye the size I wanted), cut that line in half, half hitced the two halfs back together, buried the half hitch, then buried the ends. My thought was that would hold much like a splice...and it has.
I have not know how to deal with the tails well. Feeding them back through the braid is an excellent idea. My braids have been fairly tight, so I didn't consider that, but thinking about it, if I made the weave around two doubled over lengths of whipping twine (with the loop in the direction of the end I am finishing) then this would allow me to pull two tails through at the end.

This is what I do with whipping and it works even when the whipping looks so tight you would never imagine anything could be pulled through. I poke the tail of the whipping through the loop of the "pulling twine" and grip this twine at the other end between some pliers then just twirl the pliers around so the twine swirls around the pliers. I can generate a lot of force that way and the tail of the whipping just pulls through fairly easily. I think this could be done with the tail of braid as well. I will try it out later. This is the same principle as a wire fid.

I will take a photo if I have not explained it well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
One of my spare knives. I really need to do something with the loop end though.
BelizeSailor's idea of feeding the tails a long way (even all the way) through the braid would work well I think. When you were making the lanyard a tail could be kept as long as you like to form a loop at the end, even as long as the loop you have attached. I think I would throw in a few stitches before cutting off that particular tail excess though once you had fed it through. Not all braids would grip the tail like a splice and you don't want to risk an attachment point coming loose.

----------

Expanding on the idea of having lines going up the centre of the braid, I wonder if some Spectra fishing backing line could be fed through for extra security for precious items. This fine line has a breaking strain of 50-100lb. 550 paracord has a breaking strain of 500lb, but it can chafe, possibly unexpectedly and that tiny amount of Spectra could just act as a safety line if the paracord chafed through.

SWL
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Old 20-07-2017, 00:54   #60
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Re: Confessions of a novice fancy worker

Might even foil pickpocketers.

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