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Old 03-03-2017, 09:24   #1
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Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

OK, I need to preface this by saying that I am a complete novice when it comes to double braid splicing. I have avoided it like the plague for the last few years, but recently decided it was time to confront my phobia .

I skimmed through a few YouTubes and Samson Rope's impressed me for lots, particularly with the careful taper of the tails (this affects final strength), so away I went. It involved lots of marking, but essentially was a piece of cake with unused line and splicing needles (they function like wire fids instead of the Selma or tubular type ones). My fears were unfounded .

Member Markwesti nudged me to look at Premium Ropes' method of splicing double braid. The method is similar, but the insertion point for burying the cover is quite different and as far as I can see, although the cover tail is initially buried in the core, I can't see how it stays there when the line is put under load. I may be misinterpreting the splice, but it seems although a fid length of cover is buried, little of it will be eventually buried in the core when the splice has been under load for a while, simply buried in the cover (this won't be visible). Also less core tail ends up being buried eventually as well, possibly even none if the total length of line is short. This would make it a significantly inferior splice, even though it will look very similar to Samson's when initially completed.

The different proportion of core to cover means that it would be a relatively easy splice to milk into seemingly completed position, possibly making it favourable for some people.

Any comments anyone? I could be way off base. I am just trying to puzzle out the dynamics of double braid splices.

StuM, could you please take a look at this if you have a chance?

These are the two YouTubes I have been looking at:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...1-rI0SdaA&t=31

SWL
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:54   #2
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

My brain melted at 5:33 min . Plus there is no melo sound track . Sampson evil .
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:20   #3
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Be aware there are two splices needed for double braid line. One for double braid dock lines and one for double braid low stretch halyards or sheets.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:30   #4
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Be aware there are two splices needed for double braid line. One for double braid dock lines and one for double braid low stretch halyards or sheets.
I should have added "for Class 1 rope" to the title, but it would have made it an essay .

Edited to add: I have added "polyester" and "Class 1" to the title to clarify, as it is adding confusion.

Both the Samson Rope's and Premium Ropes' YouTubes deal with Class 1 double braid I think. Samson's video is certainly labelled Class 1. I think if Premium is dealing with low stretch rope, which tends to be more slippery, it would make the problem worse, not better.

Edited to add: I checked Premium's YouTube and it says for polyester braid, so the 2 lots of instructions should be similar.

The above are just my thoughts based on the geometry of where each company chooses to insert the cover tail to bury it. I could be way off base, but I would be interested to hear what others think.

SWL
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:23   #5
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Also comparison wise on New England brand Sta-set to New England Sta-set X . Sta-set has a braided core where Sta-set X the core is straight fiber and makes it difficult to pull from the jacket . X has a lower stretch I have been told .
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:23   #6
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
My brain melted at 5:33 min . Plus there is no melo sound track . Sampson evil .
No pain, no gain
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:41   #7
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
Also comparison wise on New England brand Sta-set to New England Sta-set X . Sta-set has a braided core where Sta-set X the core is straight fiber and makes it difficult to pull from the jacket . X has a lower stretch I have been told .
The X is evil evil stuff. Not only is it a pain to splice (and has its own splicing instructions), but it is also really stiff and has a terrible hand. For the minimal stretch reduction compared to sta-set it isn't worth it.
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Old 03-03-2017, 21:09   #8
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

My explanation in post #1 was longwinded. Sorry, I was trying to puzzle through the issues. This just doesn't make sense.

I will try and explain it another way:

- You start with a clean cut at the end of the rope
- The length of cover is not changed.
- One tapered fid length of cover is buried past the loop of the eye
This occurs for both techniques.

THEN:
More than one fid length of core is cut off in Premium's technique.

Milking method can get it to sit well initially, but how is this ever going to work well under load?
Markwesti, don't be too quick to assume you went wrong following their method. It makes no sense to me at all.

SWL

This is what the cover is doing for both techniques:



PS Because the amount of bury of the core tail past the loop is not a full fid length, this is why some of the core tail is cut off in Samson's technique. It is NOT, however, more than a fid length, so this leaves the tail of the core still buried past the eye of the loop, even under load.
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Old 03-03-2017, 22:51   #9
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Be aware there are two splices needed for double braid line. One for double braid dock lines and one for double braid low stretch halyards or sheets.
Please tell me more, LakeSuperior. Where can I find good instructions for low stretch polyester double braid meant for halyard?
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:29   #10
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

It seems to me as though both splices are essentially the same.
They both have a full fid bury of the cover. And I believe you are wrong in your earlier comment about the core bury. Both have a full fid length of core buried beyond the eye. (Look at where the Premium cover bury starts in the core - two fid lengths plus the eye circumference)

The only difference lies in:

1. Samson cut off about 2/3 of a fid of core, Premium about a fid. From the ropes used in the videos, I'd guess that the difference is a result in the different core/cover tightness/proportions requiring the difference - which I'm sure they both determined by experience, not by an empirical measurement.

Samson taper a greater length of cover and core
Samson bury the core tail first, Premiuim bury it last.

2. Tapering Method. I'm really in two minds about this.
Premium's will give more compression and I'd expect it to be less likely to slip than the Samson method.
Samson's will give a smoother tapered finish and slightly less "choke effect" at the end of the buries, so would be marginally less subject to stress at the bury end.
I think I prefer the Premium result.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:37   #11
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

I can't work out Markwesti is doing wrong. I don't see how he can possibly end up with no core in the eye.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:48   #12
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
Please tell me more, LakeSuperior. Where can I find good instructions for low stretch polyester double braid meant for halyard?
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/...Splice_WEB.pdf
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:30   #13
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
It seems to me as though both splices are essentially the same.
They both have a full fid bury of the cover. And I believe you are wrong in your earlier comment about the core bury. Both have a full fid length of core buried beyond the eye. (Look at where the Premium cover bury starts in the core - two fid lengths plus the eye circumference)
Thanks for looking at this and responding Stu . I find it interesting and challenging working out the logistics. It greatly helps my understanding. I find this stuff fascinating.

Could we take this step by step? I can then work out why we are seeing this differently.

Both techniques mark the cover the length of one fid plus the loop from the end and pull the core out here. Premium call this point B and Samson call it X.
Both the core and cover are only affected for a bit over a fid length beyond for the Premium method. That is the length of the bury of the cover plus a bit extra to allow for the slight rearrangement of the relationship between the core and cover when the core is pulled out. Samson allow for this with their pull and milking at the start and this shifts the core out a little - it is only few cm, nothing dramatic. So Samson have allowed for the rearrangement.

Nothing happens beyond there for either region. We only need to consider this area.

Am I right to start with? This is the basis for some of my thinking.

There are 3 big differences I then see between the 2 methods:

1. A full fid length of cover in the Premium video is only fed into 0.75 of fid length of core (C' to D'). It needs more than one fid length of core to bury a fid length of cover in it, not less, so the full fid length cannot possibly be buried. Sampson use 1.3 fid lengths to ensure full bury (Mark II to Mark III) of a bit less than a fid length (T to the tail end) into the core.
So the cover is definitely not buried in the core the same amount to start with. Premium is significantly less.

2. At the crossover point Premium start the bury of the cover in the core a full fid length away from where the core was pulled out of the cover ie the start of the loop of the eye. Samson insert the cover only a third of a fid length away.

3. At the crossover point Premium start the bury of the core in the cover where the tail emerges from the core and this seems to end up about a third of a fid length from the start of the loop of the eye.
In the Samson method this occurs at the marked point T which is 8 strands from the start of the loop of the eye.

Given we are looking at only a fid length of core and cover involved beyond the eye of the loop, these are big differences, not minor.

I predict for the Premium method when load is applied without the stitches the core is going to slide down closer to where it originally started and even less of the cover will end up buried in the core. This will not be at all visible or felt. The cover will still remain buried in the cover for a full fid length (unless the splice fails).
The length of bury of the tail will simultaneously shorten (again, not visible at first). If it shortens so much that it does not stay buried beyond the loop then you will actually feel the core is not in the loop and the splice weakens dramatically as it is just relying on the strength of the cover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
The only difference lies in:

1. Samson cut off about 2/3 of a fid of core, Premium about a fid.

From the ropes used in the videos, I'd guess that the difference is a result in the different core/cover tightness/proportions requiring the difference - which I'm sure they both determined by experience, not by an empirical measurement.
Yes, this may be part of why the difference occurs. But if it is, I would not use the Premium technique for any other brand of similar double braid polyester. I think it is bound to have significantly less strength. Way too much core is cut off.
Maybe there is something unusual about the initial relationship between the core and cover for Premium lines. Maybe it is the final stitching that saves it. I tend to think it is probably the latter.

Also, I think looking at the video it is actually a bit more than a fid length that is cut off for the Premium method. Have a close look. My gut feeling is that when heavy/prolonged load is applied the core and cover will tend to want to realign as they were initially. If this is the case, if this much core it cut off when only a fid length of cover in buried in the cover, the tail of the core will definitely slide into the loop. That last bit is just simple geometry.
I am super uncomfortable about this. I don't like it at all .


Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Samson taper a greater length of cover and core
Samson bury the core tail first, Premiuim bury it last.

2. Tapering Method. I'm really in two minds about this.
Premium's will give more compression and I'd expect it to be less likely to slip than the Samson method.
Samson's will give a smoother tapered finish and slightly less "choke effect" at the end of the buries, so would be marginally less subject to stress at the bury end.
I don't know what occurs for double braid. My opinion regarding this is only related to what occurs when single braid is buried. Unless the taper is very gradual, significant strength is lost (I will see if I can find the exact figures for single braid, but I vaguely remember there is about a 20% loss with no taper).
Samson must have a good reason for taking such care with a gradual taper. I doubt they would waste so much time and effort if it was unimportant.

SWL
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:34   #14
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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I can't work out Markwesti is doing wrong. I don't see how he can possibly end up with no core in the eye.
Hey Stu , well it isn't no core it's only half and I don't know either and it has happened with another method I was using . Hopefully SWL is on to something about the "C" mark . The instructions that come with the Selma fids are a translation and at least for me a little hard to understand . I need more practice .
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:58   #15
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re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
Hey Stu , I don't know either and it has happened with another method I was using . Hopefully SWL is on to something about the "C" mark . The instructions that come with the Selma fids are a translation and at least for me a little hard to understand . I need more practice .
Mark, I will make up a diagram for you to see if I can help.

I suspect you are ending up cutting off more than a fid length of core tail before doing the milking.

I think a very simple solution is not to cut any core tail off at all until you have finished the splice completely and put some decent, prolonged load on it. Then mark where the core tail emerges from the line (and earlier make this point where it emerges about a third of a fid from the start of the loop, not necessarily 5-10 cm as Premium instruct) and pull the core tail out a little (I think this will be possible). Then taper it roughly past the mark, as Premium show, and finally pull on the loop to draw it in.

This is not ideal, but it will be nearly right. Certainly light years better than having the loop not full of core .

SWL
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