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Old 18-03-2017, 12:35   #181
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I think I know where this is heading .

If the bend ratio (sheave diameter to rope diameter) increases, system strength increases.

So you would like to know the difference in "sheave diameter" when the legs are buried compared to loose. Is this correct?

This is complicated. My thoughts are that if the hollow interior of the single braid is large enough to accomodate another lot of single braid, then I think if the legs are squished evenly by a noose it makes no difference if they are buried or not. What makes it complicated is that the compression will not occur evenly.

Also, the hollow interior is actually not large enough to accomodate another lot of single braid. The rope needs to shorten to allow the interior diameter to increase. This increases the thickness of the outer braid, so theoretically the sheave diameter increases. This would theoretically mean a higher efficiency.

If so, and compression is even, a perfectly made shackle with an Overhand stopper compared to a Button stopper would be a bit higher.

My loyalty to the Button is not diminished though (true love never dies ). I think any tiny increase in sheath diameter would make a miniscule difference in a system where the skill of the maker makes a big difference.

The principle behind making a stopper with 4 legs at its base was to increase sheath diameter and therefore increase system strength. It worked big time. I wonder if it possible to make this even greater?

What if we make a stopper where the base is more than 4 legs in size? Tricky, as we only have 2 legs going in, but nothing is impossible (eternal optimist here ). I wonder what stoppers we have at our disposal. Ashley has what looks like dozens of buttons (slight exaggeration ).

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How about taking a small low friction ring, put it on the shackle against the stopper knot and create a noose that fits the ring?
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Old 18-03-2017, 13:08   #182
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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How about taking a small low friction ring, put it on the shackle against the stopper knot and create a noose that fits the ring?
Left field ideas can lead to great things .

How would you secure the ring?
Drawback is having something hard in the system, rather than dyneema itself.

-------

Jedi, there is heaps of room for improvement with soft shackles. With having 4 legs, the potential system strength is 400% line strength. The best we have at the moment is only 230%. I think we may be smiling in years to come that we called this "High Strength" .

SWL
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Old 18-03-2017, 13:10   #183
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Jedi, shall I move this discussion to another thread?
It will get lost in this one.

If so, what do you want to title it? I can make your post the first, so it becomes your thread if you like.

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Old 18-03-2017, 13:27   #184
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jedi, shall I move this discussion to another thread?
It will get lost in this one.

If so, what do you want to title it? I can make your post the first, so it becomes your thread if you like.

SWL
Let's leave this for now; I'll open a new thread as I get my shipment in and start some experiments :-) I looked at load cells but man they are expensive. I do have some hefty winches aboard Jedi but have no clue how much force I can apply with them...
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Old 18-03-2017, 13:42   #185
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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Let's leave this for now; I'll open a new thread as I get my shipment in and start some experiments :-) I looked at load cells but man they are expensive. I do have some hefty winches aboard Jedi but have no clue how much force I can apply with them...
OK.

It is fun tossing ideas around though.
Even wacky ones can inspire and lead to great things.
And pushing the boundaries helps think about the basic principles involved.

I haven't checked out the price of load cells as these tests are totally impractical on board, even on a strongly built aluminium boat .
It is something I would be interested in having if I spent much time ashore. It frustrates me at times that some of my ideas remain untested, but I understand it is a lot to ask someone to do this. It is costly and time consuming making up samples and it takes time to do sufficient tests to get statistically significant findings.

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Old 20-03-2017, 17:07   #186
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

So I am preparing for splicing both polyester double braid as well as Dyneema single braid and partly sleeve the Dyneema.

I just checked the Samson video on the lock stitching on the splice in Dyneema. They recommend a nylon braid of the same diameter of a strand of the Dyneema that you are splicing. WTF, I don't think I have that and pretty sure I can't buy it here.

I have polyester up to waxed V346 and then Samson whipping twine which is also waxed and I'm pretty sure that is polyester as well. Plus all of that is too thin.
Then I have all that Spyderline high tech which is even worse.

What are you using? I may have to do Brummel locks again...

I ordered 7/16" Samson XLS Yachtbraid. I'm pretty sure I had that before and I loved how it spliced, easy. I normally do a stitched whipping on those splices... do you do that as well? Most of the videos we have in this thread skip it but I believe most manufacturers recommend it...
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Old 20-03-2017, 21:32   #187
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So I am preparing for splicing both polyester double braid as well as Dyneema single braid and partly sleeve the Dyneema.

I just checked the Samson video on the lock stitching on the splice in Dyneema. They recommend a nylon braid of the same diameter of a strand of the Dyneema that you are splicing. WTF, I don't think I have that and pretty sure I can't buy it here.
One way of getting this "thread" is simply buy a little braided nylon line and pull out the core and then pull out a strand. From a metre of nylon you will have a decent supply of "thread".

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I have polyester up to waxed V346 and then Samson whipping twine which is also waxed and I'm pretty sure that is polyester as well. Plus all of that is too thin.
Then I have all that Spyderline high tech which is even worse.

What are you using? I may have to do Brummel locks again...
I am using Spectra backing line used for fishing. Pink .

Samson have excellent instructions. You carefully insert a very blunt needle between the strands on one side to create an exit hole. Do so on the entry side as well and wriggle it through, again emerging between strands.
The process needs to be silent. If you hear crackle it is breaking fibres inside.
Takes a little time initially, but then speeds up with practice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I ordered 7/16" Samson XLS Yachtbraid. I'm pretty sure I had that before and I loved how it spliced, easy. I normally do a stitched whipping on those splices... do you do that as well? Most of the videos we have in this thread skip it but I believe most manufacturers recommend it...
I use locking stitching, not whipping.
I sew the same pattern as with dyneema, but use a sharp needle to get through.
As with dyneema, this is primarily to stop the splice sliding while unloaded.

SWL
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Old 20-03-2017, 22:49   #188
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Regarding eye splicing double braid poly, in my opinion the very best demonstration I have seen so far is the WesSpur Tree Equipment video. I think you provided this link. It is almost identical to the Samson video with a few tiny refinements. It is also presented clearly without waffle:



Again just in my opinion, by far the worst was the Merchant JTS one. He droned on for 50 minutes and the technique was appalling in parts - he even managed to instruct you to cut off about a third of the core tail about halfway through (the original fid sized length that no other method dreams of shortening, even of some methods dont bury it all in the core as well as the cover).

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Old 20-03-2017, 23:06   #189
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
One way of getting this "thread" is simply buy a little braided nylon line and pull out the core and then pull out a strand. From a metre of nylon you will have a decent supply of "thread".



I am using Spectra backing line used for fishing. Pink .

Samson have excellent instructions. You carefully insert a very blunt needle between the strands on one side to create an exit hole. Do so on the entry side as well and wriggle it through, again emerging between strands.
The process needs to be silent. If you hear crackle it is breaking fibres inside.
Takes a little time initially, but then speeds up with practice.




I use locking stitching, not whipping.
I sew the same pattern as with dyneema, but use a sharp needle to get through.
As with dyneema, this is primarily to stop the splice sliding while unloaded.

SWL
I think they recommend nylon because they want the stitching to be stretchy... Also, isn't that fishingline way thinner than the Dyneema strands?

"simply buy some braided nylon line" hahahahahahaha ... hahahahahahaha...
in Panama? :-)
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Old 20-03-2017, 23:06   #190
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Jedi, this is how my lock stitching with Spectra backing line looks on dyneema splices.
On the left side the second row can just be seen.

If you zoom in you will see none of the strands are pierced.
The same applies on the reverse.

If you don't have a blunt needle, just poke an ordinary one in backwards:


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Old 20-03-2017, 23:15   #191
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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I think they recommend nylon because they want the stitching to be stretchy...
Yes, that is my guess too. If you stitch without using the proper technique, as the splice stretches fibres will break. Safer to use nylon then.


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"simply buy some braided nylon line" hahahahahahaha ... hahahahahahaha...
in Panama? :-)
I have become spoiled being in the NL . A fantastic chandlery is just a short cycle away.
Over the last decade I have had no access to a chandlery for most of the year, so can relate to your laughter .

SWL
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Old 20-03-2017, 23:51   #192
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jedi, this is how my lock stitching with Spectra backing line looks on dyneema splices.
On the left side the second row can just be seen.

If you zoom in you will see none of the strands are pierced.
The same applies on the reverse.

If you don't have a blunt needle, just poke an ordinary one in backwards:


I take that back. When I look closely I can see I managed to pierce one strand.
Look at the top left. The fluffy fibre is a giveaway that this has occured.

With a bit more care taken this can be avoided, as as you can see with the rest of the stitches.

Because of the "square" stitching pattern (I don't know what to call this), there is a huge amount of stretch that can freely occur, then bounce back. The stitching is not pulled in when under load. I will see if I can hunt up a photo I took under load.

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Old 21-03-2017, 00:00   #193
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

This is how the stitching looks under load (all the force I could exert using one of our winches). I subjected it to this primarily to see how the Bullseye weave would behave, but the effect on the stitching can be seen as well:




Below is a close up of the above. The stitching is still "loose" under load. It is not digging into the dyneema. I think this is an excellent way of lock stitching, although it is time consuming. I found instructions for this on the Samson website.

I think it you are lock stitching like this, then there is no need to use nylon:



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Old 21-03-2017, 05:58   #194
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

Okay, I agree that as long as the stitching doesn't impact shape under load, it must be good. But how about the diameter of the thread? Your examples, the thread is only a fraction of the Dyneema strands... in the Samson video, it looks a little smaller but still close to the recommended diameter. I think they want that diameter so that it can't cut into the Dyneema fibers. In your example under tension, this would still be okay, but your bury tail may not have tried to move yet... if it tries to undo the splice and is stopped by the stitching, then movement during the next tensioning may be more.

What I don't like so much with the Samson video... and this seems to counter what they preach... is that they pull the little square knot to lock the stitching back into the Dyneema splice. So now you have created a nice big stress riser...

I have nice thin Spiderline that I can use but the knot bothers me. With your thin thread it is much less of a problem. I have 50lb spectra braided fishing line but it's green en really thin... I may double some whipping twine and use that...
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Old 24-03-2017, 00:55   #195
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Re: Comparing techniques used for eye splicing double braid polyester (=Class 1)

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Okay, I agree that as long as the stitching doesn't impact shape under load, it must be good. But how about the diameter of the thread? Your examples, the thread is only a fraction of the Dyneema strands... in the Samson video, it looks a little smaller but still close to the recommended diameter. I think they want that diameter so that it can't cut into the Dyneema fibers. In your example under tension, this would still be okay, but your bury tail may not have tried to move yet... if it tries to undo the splice and is stopped by the stitching, then movement during the next tensioning may be more.
Reading this just reinforces how much I dislike sewing rope .
Following Samson's technique (except in my choice of thread) is the closest I have come to be happy stitching. Also, of all the instructions given by all the rope manufacturers, I would trust Samson first. I think there is a good reason behind their recommendations.

Yes, something less abrasive resistant than the dyneema such as nylon or polyester as Samson suggest would help stop wear on the dyneema fibres, but I think this is a double edged sword. If the stitching is under load, eventually wear of something will occur. If the nylon wears and eventually breaks, the splice may give way after load is repeatedly removed and applied.

By the way, I doubt the tail bury will move under load. I played with loading dyneema splices (made using 72x line diameter length of bury) without any stitching and it was just amazing how it gripped. Like glue! I tried inserting a marked thread midway in the spice and it didn't budge.

The purpose of the stitching is not to help the splice grip under load, it is to stop it shaking loose when there is very little load and it is fluctuating.


Quote:
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What I don't like so much with the Samson video... and this seems to counter what they preach... is that they pull the little square knot to lock the stitching back into the Dyneema splice. So now you have created a nice big stress riser...
I use no knots when stitching rope. To both start and finish I run about 5-10 cm of thread inside the core and put in a couple of light backstitches (no tugging to tighten so no stress on the line), run it a few mm back to where you started and out in another couple of back stitches, then start the lock stitching. The finish is similar.

SWL
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