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13-11-2019, 17:26
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
I just replaced some standing rigging on my boat. It originally had Dyform 1x19 wire so it was replaced with Compact Stranded 1x19. Not sure who the original manufacturer is of the new wire.
This new wire has a line vertically up the wire. In most cases along the wire it just sort of looks like a mark but the line goes straight up both of the wire pieces I have. In several spots the line is a deeper groove. This groove has developed rust in the 6 months I have had it which is why I noticed it.
When we installed it the groove went unnoticed because it blended in well but the rust that developed was more obvious.
Anyone out there with compact stranded 1x19, can you tell me if you have a similar line or even groove up your wire?
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13-11-2019, 18:47
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#2
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
That would most assuredly be a tooling mark, most probably left by a die that the wire was pulled through, its rusting from the iron contamination in the wire left by the die.
That’s my opinion of course, but what I think your asking is is this enough of a defect for me to be concerned with?
I’d say probably not, but then I’m not a rigger either.
Did you pay someone to replace the rigging, or did you do it yourself?
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13-11-2019, 20:06
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
That would most assuredly be a tooling mark, most probably left by a die that the wire was pulled through, its rusting from the iron contamination in the wire left by the die.
That’s my opinion of course, but what I think your asking is is this enough of a defect for me to be concerned with?
I’d say probably not, but then I’m not a rigger either.
Did you pay someone to replace the rigging, or did you do it yourself?
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I agree it is likely from tooling. I just wanted to find out from others if they saw this in their compact stranded as well or if this is an indicator of lower quality.
I had a company produce the wire and swages then I installed them.
Unfortunately, in a few spots on my new wire there are grooves where this line should be. It is deep enough that the strands are clearly compromised.
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14-11-2019, 13:44
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: lakeville ma.
Boat: corbin39
Posts: 150
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
I have some compact strand on my boat it has a line in it more of a slight bump out not in
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14-11-2019, 13:45
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Baysailer
I have some compact strand on my boat it has a line in it more of a slight bump out not in
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Thanks for the reply.
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14-11-2019, 14:12
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#6
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,242
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by feudalkaos
I agree it is likely from tooling. I just wanted to find out from others if they saw this in their compact stranded as well or if this is an indicator of lower quality.
I had a company produce the wire and swages then I installed them.
Unfortunately, in a few spots on my new wire there are grooves where this line should be. It is deep enough that the strands are clearly compromised.
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These grooves would concern me - seems like excellent stress raisers which can't be a good thing - IMO.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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14-11-2019, 14:16
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
These grooves would concern me - seems like excellent stress raisers which can't be a good thing - IMO.
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Thanks for the reply.
I totally agree and have already contacted the maker of the wire. Only one of the wires has deep grooves. The other wire has a line that is clearly an indention but I am not sure it would have a significant impact on strength.
At this point I am just looking for feedback from others to find out if the line (minor indention) as pictured would be concerning or not.
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14-11-2019, 14:27
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#8
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by feudalkaos
Thanks for the reply.
I totally agree and have already contacted the maker of the wire. Only one of the wires has deep grooves. The other wire has a line that is clearly an indention but I am not sure it would have a significant impact on strength.
At this point I am just looking for feedback from others to find out if the line (minor indention) as pictured would be concerning or not.
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I thought the pictured ones were the grooves.
However if the pictured ones are the lines, I think (but don't know) they are deep enough to be concerned. Certainly deep enough to get an expert opinion.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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14-11-2019, 14:29
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#9
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
My concern centres around the way SS work hardens any stress raisers, minor or otherwise.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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14-11-2019, 14:55
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
I thought the pictured ones were the grooves.
However if the pictured ones are the lines, I think (but don't know) they are deep enough to be concerned. Certainly deep enough to get an expert opinion.
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That helps. The one pictured is the "normal." The bad spots are much deeper.
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14-11-2019, 17:37
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,647
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
I admit I don’t know much about wire rope but I do know a bit about stranded wire. That looks to me like a sizing die issue that should never occur.
Making steamed wire the individual wires are on spools in a machine that twists them under a specific strain and then pulled through dies as it gets spoiled. Those secondary does are primarily to ensure the overall size is correct. But during the process and setup the output is supposed to be validated so the overall wire od is correct. So you should never see this is the individual strands are the right size and the twist per foot is correct. The above is based on what I know about electrical wire but the machines are virtually identical.
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Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
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14-11-2019, 17:49
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 76
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None
I admit I don’t know much about wire rope but I do know a bit about stranded wire. That looks to me like a sizing die issue that should never occur.
Making steamed wire the individual wires are on spools in a machine that twists them under a specific strain and then pulled through dies as it gets spoiled. Those secondary does are primarily to ensure the overall size is correct. But during the process and setup the output is supposed to be validated so the overall wire od is correct. So you should never see this is the individual strands are the right size and the twist per foot is correct. The above is based on what I know about electrical wire but the machines are virtually identical.
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I haven't specifically worked with the equipment that makes wire rope but I understand the concept and what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Its hard for me to imagine that any kind of groove no matter how slight would be considered an acceptable manufacturing flaw. Perhaps a mark that has no indentation but not a groove.
Thanks for the feedback.
I have contacted the company that made up the wire (not the wire manufacturer but the rigging company) and they have said that the line is "normal" and "not outside what they normally see." I am pushing them to look further but getting a bad feeling they are trying to take a no responsibility stance.
I have attached an image of the worst area to this to see if anyone has any further feedback. This image is one of 3 spots on one wire that are about this bad. The spot is about 4 inches long and as you can see the strands are compromised. You can also see where rust has developed in the groove. This is after I tried polishing out the rust, it was much worse.
This wire is only 6 months old and has only left the dock for a total of 4 hours.
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14-11-2019, 18:04
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#13
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,560
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by feudalkaos
I haven't specifically worked with the equipment that makes wire rope but I understand the concept and what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Its hard for me to imagine that any kind of groove no matter how slight would be considered an acceptable manufacturing flaw. Perhaps a mark that has no indentation but not a groove.
Thanks for the feedback.
I have contacted the company that made up the wire (not the wire manufacturer but the rigging company) and they have said that the line is "normal" and "not outside what they normally see." I am pushing them to look further but getting a bad feeling they are trying to take a no responsibility stance.
I have attached an image of the worst area to this to see if anyone has any further feedback. This image is one of 3 spots on one wire that are about this bad. The spot is about 4 inches long and as you can see the strands are compromised. You can also see where rust has developed in the groove. This is after I tried polishing out the rust, it was much worse.
This wire is only 6 months old and has only left the dock for a total of 4 hours.
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I'm normally a guy that lets a lot slide. Not that. There is considerable damamge to all of the outside wires. That looks like "do it over." The old wire was probably better. That wire is ruined. It isn't a dent, it is a scratch, and there is metal torn out and missing.
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14-11-2019, 18:05
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Bellingham, WA
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 280
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
No way is that "normal"! Every external strand is significantly compromised by something dragging either in the manufacturing process of compressing the wire, or in handling it as it came off the spool. i'd be asking for replacement, and would not consider sailing with rigging whanged up like that.
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14-11-2019, 18:22
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#15
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 10,594
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Re: Compact Stranded 1x19 Wire (Dyform) Groove
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
I'm normally a guy that lets a lot slide. Not that. There is considerable damamge to all of the outside wires. That looks like "do it over." The old wire was probably better. That wire is ruined. It isn't a dent, it is a scratch, and there is metal torn out and missing.
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that looks like it has been done accidentally with a 1.2 mm stainless cutting disk probably whilst it was on the wire drum and rolled up which would account for each damaged section being spread apart by a few feet/meters
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