Code Zero, Blast Reacher, Continuous Furler ?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Roverhi - I have no deckspace left! I can barely squeeze in my J length pole parallel to my genoa tracks - just outboard, but that's it. I can't move it further forward towards the foredeck either since then the space left over from the lashed down dinghy gets into the "scary" territory. Also, as with yourself, I don't like the idea of anything telescopic..

Have you considered storing poles on the mast. If you could afford carbon fiber, you could put an extra long one on the mast with a more moderate weight aloft penalty and have 2 poles without taking more deck space.

My suggestion would be buy a used drifter right now ($500-1000) and the pole you have, then take several months of cruising to see what is working on the boat and get ideas about what works and what doesn't on YOUR boat.

[savoir]

Here's the North take on furlable spinnakers.

North Sails: C-Series Roller Furling Gennakers

[Surfer Girl]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

The zero should not be set partially furled, even downwind. The fabric is light and the edges will not be properly reinforced for the loads imposed by furling. There are significant snatch/shock loads even/particularly in light downwind sailing.

Akio, looks like you've got a lot of food for thought... unfortunately, you won't really know what works brilliantly until you get out and trial and error it because your ex IOR boat was designed for racing and a certain suite of sails (not that it can't be an excellent cruiser ).

I second the above comment! You are spending a lot of $$ on new sails and when cruising you want to extend their life as much as possible to complete your circum nav. Furlers were originally designed as a safe, quick way to reduce sail and for ease of access -i.e. the headsail is always ready to go or stow. They weren't really designed to turn one sail into many, although of course for short periods this is fine. If you use a partially furled sail for a long time under load, it will stretch or deform. Plus, it isn't working very efficiently because the leading edge of the foil is bunched up disrupting the airflow, causing drag. Even though you're not racing, when you cross an ocean, every 10th of a knot counts and your sails will last longer.

I am so excited for you and a little envious! How exciting to be planning your adventure - good on ya!

[akio.kanemoto]

Barnakiel - will have a chat with the sailmaker about materials.

Evans - Blast reacher sounds great too, but I'm trying to keep my sail inventory down, I'd love more sails, but I am seriously out of room for storage, without getting into the "store sails on the settee" territory.. so if the wind picks up, then I'm back to the 135% genoa, rolled up as needed (and maybe the 100% poled out on the other side DDW on the code zero furler if this theory works).

Adelie - I've added a some weight above the WL by adding a deckbox for LPG tanks etc (and have theoretically compensated for this by switching out wire rope halyards for spectra).. but I really don't want to add any more weight aloft with poles.

Your suggestion to sail a few months and see what works is definitely the best way, and I wish I could. But I'm racing against time and currency. AUD/USD has been fabulous over the past few months, so I've bought everything I could think of, that I can spec - AP, comms, sat phone, rigid vang, hydraulic backstay adjuster, all new deck hardware, blocks etc, all new instruments and displays etc etc.. and I have to keep going before the AUD bombs... Down from USD1.10 to 97 cents and counting! Buying in Australia usually costs roughly 2-3 times the US price - and that's even when the currencies are at parity, as the local businesses don't ever pass the savings on. ... but yes, sails are one of these things too. So just then, I ordered a Facnor FX2500 CL furler, so I'm committed one way or another!

Savoir - thanks for the link, I will take a good look shortly.

Surfer Girl - thanks for the well wishes, greatly appreciated! It's been 6 years in the making! Actually I was supposed to head off this year, but everything just got delayed further and further.. so we'll hopefully be moving aboard in the next month or two and getting used to it, then we're planning on joining the Sail-Indonesia rally and heading off from Darwin in July. Sounds far away, but I'm almost in a state of panic trying to get everything sorted out by then! (I don't even have any soft furnishings yet!)

On furling, I haven't done any passages yet, but I'm hoping that:

a. My "normal" roller furling 135% genoa with a foam draft regulator will let me furl it part way if required and use it that way for as long as required without trashing the sail quickly. Yes/No?

b. I will have my spare 100% genoa modified to be able to fly off the detachable code zero furler, so I can use it like a normal genoa/jib (a furler is a furler right?).

c. DDW, I'd like to roll up the 135% to 100%, pole it out on one side and fly the "spare" 100% on the other side off the code zero furler and pole it out as well.

I'll find out this week from a local sailmaker (any recommendations??) whether the "spare" 100% can be modified to take a high tensile luff rope for the furler, but the Americans who I'm buying the rest of the sails from, tell me that the modification is straightforward.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

a. My "normal" roller furling 135% genoa with a foam draft regulator will let me furl it part way if required and use it that way for as long as required without trashing the sail quickly. Yes/No?

Yes, agreed/ We don't like running our working jib partially furled. But many experienced peopke do and it works ok (so long as you are not tring to go tight to windward). John Neilis one very experienced guy who does it all the time and has 100,00's of miles.

b. I will have my spare 100% genoa modified to be able to fly off the detachable code zero furler, so I can use it like a normal genoa/jib (a furler is a furler right?).

Ah, thats ok, I had missed that you had this 100%er, which I agree means you don't need the blast reacher.

c. DDW, I'd like to roll up the 135% to 100%, pole it out on one side and fly the "spare" 100% on the other side off the code zero furler and pole it out as well.

Oir experience is that the two sails don't need to be so exactly 'balanced'. Just for example, In strong winds we often fly the working jib to ine side and the staysail to the other and the boat feels really good with a balanced and steady helm.

Regarding the pole(s), we have always done as another poster said and just used one pole - flying the windward sail on the poke and the leeward one free or sheeted to the boom end. Two poles are better, but one does work adequately. With one we just have to stay slightly to one side of the wind.

Have fun with your great adventure

[Surfer Girl]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

I'll find out this week from a local sailmaker (any recommendations??) whether the "spare" 100% can be modified to take a high tensile luff rope for the furler, but the Americans who I'm buying the rest of the sails from, tell me that the modification is straightforward.

Can't make any recommendations but talking to a good sailmaker is the go - they are the craftsmen(women) and should be able to advise and make the right sail(s) for your long term cruising needs.
Just remember 1 sail can't do it all and changing sail for the appropriate wind conditions is always the best policy. It'll mean less grief, longer lasting sails, a vessel that stays in control (not over powered) and give you something to do on those long passages.
Reefing or a quick sail change really doesn't take that long for a practised crew and with a squall approaching (for example), will keep you safe and avoid damage or mishap...

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Quote:
c. DDW, I'd like to roll up the 135% to 100%, pole it out on one side and fly the "spare" 100% on the other side off the code zero furler and pole it out as well.

I didn't think of the boom at all, that's very neat! Might save me from having to put together another pole! (Less work, woohoo!!!)

Do you just hang a snatch block off the end of the boom from a strop or somesuch and then use a preventer to hold the boom in situ?




Have fun with your great adventure

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to it. We're actually in a somewhat similar position to yourselves in that we have a similar corporate background and left a couple of years ago to do this fulltime. Only thing I'm regretting now is not doing something like you did with Hawk (my pinup boat!), but I get a little overfocused at times and I was too far into rebuilding this one when I realized "wait, I've already spent enough money to buy a new one!" ... anyway, we plan to sail conservatively and hope the boat will compensate for our own deficiencies..

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by Surfer Girl

Can't make any recommendations but talking to a good sailmaker is the go - they are the craftsmen(women) and should be able to advise and make the right sail(s) for your long term cruising needs.
Just remember 1 sail can't do it all and changing sail for the appropriate wind conditions is always the best policy. It'll mean less grief, longer lasting sails, a vessel that stays in control (not over powered) and give you something to do on those long passages.
Reefing or a quick sail change really doesn't take that long for a practised crew and with a squall approaching (for example), will keep you safe and avoid damage or mishap...

G'day,

Well, come Monday, I'll be ringing around!

Cheers!

(love the signature btw!

[Weyalan]

Speaking as another IOR 1-tonner owner, I will offer a small word of caution:
If, as you have hinted, you have an original IOR 1-ton fractional rig (typically 3/4 fractional), as opposed to the old masthead style, this typically rather anaemic section is not really designed to take loads from a masthead headsail - being generally tapered quit significantly above the hounds and the mast top is only really supported by the jumper struts and diamond stays. Obviously, if you do have a masthead rig, ignore all of the above.

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

Speaking as another IOR 1-tonner owner, I will offer a small word of caution:
If, as you have hinted, you have an original IOR 1-ton fractional rig (typically 3/4 fractional), as opposed to the old masthead style, this typically rather anaemic section is not really designed to take loads from a masthead headsail - being generally tapered fiercly above the hounds and the mast top is only really supported by the jumper struts and diamond stays. Obviously, if you do have a masthead rig, ignore all of the above.

Howdy,

Thanks for the tip. Interestingly enough, mine is a masthead rig.. BUT.. I really don't think the mast is original.

Not sure of the terminology, so I'll describe: It's a two spreader rig and I have cap shrouds going to the masthead as well as inners from the chainplates to just under the lower set of spreaders, as well as another set of inners going from the tips of the lower set of spreaders to just below the top spreaders. That's it.

As far as mast taper - there is zero taper in the mast until about 2m from the masthead, at which point it tapers quite a bit. The mast section is double thickness (about 8mm thick, so two extrusions, one inside the other) from the heel to about 3/4 of the way up to the lower spreaders, then single thickness.

I know that the PO used to run stupidly sized genoas from the masthead, but mainly coastal/round the cans racing.

I have two upsidedown u-bolts on the masthead crane/top plate extending forward beyond the forestay, which have a pair of quite solid looking blocks for spinnaker use - and this is what I plan to run the Code Zero up.

Just got a message back from the sailmaker, and it looks like the Code Zero will look like 70m2. (my 135% genoa is 35m2).

Thoughts? I don't want to break anything!

[Bash]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Bash - you mention that poling out a code 0 + 135% genoa will result in death rolling, would your opinion change if I said that it was a 100% genoa on one side and the 135% on the other side rolled up to 100%? Also, on another thread, you mention that you use a North G3 gennaker, do you use it with a furler? (apparently the top part of the sail doesn't furl well?)

I'm far better with that sort of rig for your boat. I'm not even sure that you'd need to roll the 135 down to 100% all the time. But to go with a code zero + a genoa as a twizzle rig on an IOR design seems to invite disaster, especially if you haven't turboed the rudder since IOR died.

We do not furl the G3, although we usually use it with a sock. The cool thing about the G3 is that you can fly it way forward on a run, so far forward that the leech actually comes through to the other side of the main's shadow. However, you would not be able to use that trick if it was on a furler like a code zero.

[Weyalan]

A typical IOR masthead rig is a much different animal to the 3/4 fractional... typically much stronger and more stable (it probably needed to be to carry those huge headsails and the associated loads). A 2-spreader masthead rig is unlikely (in my unqualified opinion) to give you any problems.

Those "stupid sized" genoas were probably what the boat was designed to carry. If I recall correctly, 155% genoas were not at all unusual back then.

For what it is worth, I'd suspect that, given IOR boats tendency to "deathroll" when running dead downwind, using 1 pole and sailing slightly hotter angles will work better than using 2 poles and sailing DDW. You might wish to borrow a 2nd pole and try it before making any decisions.

On our 3/4 rigged 1-tonner, we have a 135% furling genoa. We are in the process of designing / fitting a detachable inner stay for hank on jibs (probably #4 or storm jib). We have had similar discussions about the correct sail selection for light wind / running conditions. Withour fractional rig we can't really countenance masthead asymetrical sails. At this stage we are thinking that a 3/4 oz fractional symetrical kite will be our choice of sail, to be doused in above 10 apparent (once we get above 10 apparent, we are still light enough to get decent speed with main and poled-out genoa), this being a rig that the boat was, essentially, designed for.

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by Bash

I'm far better with that sort of rig for your boat. I'm not even sure that you'd need to roll the 135 down to 100% all the time. But to go with a code zero + a genoa as a twizzle rig on an IOR design seems to invite disaster, especially if you haven't turboed the rudder since IOR died.

What do you mean by turboing the rudder? Better shape or more size?

If size, my rudder is HUUUUUGE. Say 1.7m x 65cm (~5.5ft x ~2ft). Ugly shape like a barn door though!

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

Good to hear.

Yep, the foot of the #1 genoa was almost 7m long!

Actually I'm going to borrow Evans' idea and drop the second pole idea altogether and use the boom somehow, if required. (snatch block off the end?)

.

Actually I have just fitted a removable inner forestay to mine. It's about 2/3 of the way up the mast. Actually the stay attachment was there before, but the bizarre thing is that the sheave for the halyard was ABOVE the stay fitting.. so my rigger moved the stay about 30cm higher to be above the sheave. Runners were there originally also, but the PO never needed to use them and never set the inner forestay either.

I'm using Dynex Dux, with a Hyfield lever.

Runners will be tensioned with a 4:1 tackle.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

drop the second pole idea altogether and use the boom somehow, if required. (snatch block off the end?).

We tried various snatch blocks and the bang around a bit and the sheet sometimes chafed on the mainsail folds, so we have ended up with a sheet that has a length of vinyl hose on it. Our current solution is to lash the hose on the end of the boom and the sheet slides back and forth inside it. Works pretty well.

Just one comment on something we learned/changed about poled out jibs . . . we do this is quite strong breezes and if/when your jib backwinds (happens in a sudden wind shift or if you are trying to sail to high) the pole is shock loaded forward quite strongly which make big torque on the pole track on the mast. We were sailing with a jib poled out in South Georgia and got a 40kts gust from a different direction (coming down a valley) which backed the jib, sheared 4 of the bolts holding the track on the mast and peeled a section of the track off the mast. We have ended up doubling the bolt spacing in the track area where the pole car is set for the jib.