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Old 20-07-2017, 08:41   #76
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
On a cruising boat, except if she is a specific design, a pure modern zero is waste of money. But a zero-like genoa will find great use if your sailing area is in some lighter zones. Many lofts provide 'cruising code zeroes' designed and planned for just that.

So my answer is a qualified yes. Just do not copy that IMOCA design because you are not likely to be cruising in an IMOCA hull. Sails must be matched with hull performance. Racy sails in a cruising hull are only half good. Ask any sailmaker.

Cheers,
b.
100% agree.....what is that type of sail specifically called? Light weight, loose luff very large genoa. Its not really a code zero and its not a genoa in the traditional sense.
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Old 20-07-2017, 09:16   #77
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
I purchased a jib top reacher for my last boat, I believe it to be similar to a code zero, just higher clew? I never used my asymmetrical again, the jib top reacher was just more versatile. It really was often the difference between motoring or not.

On my current boat I have a asymmetrical, it is so large that I haven't bothered dragging it out on deck. I intend to purchase a code zero on a furler based on my previous experience.

The big thing to me is ease of use, or I just wont use it, as I currently don't use my assymetrical, as lazy as that may seem.
It would help the majority of us if you were to better define the above sail. As I've seen "jib top reachers" which were flown; from the headstay, from 2nd headstay or Solent Stay, flown loose luffed on their own furler (as staysails) which got tacked to a deck padeye (some having kevlar luff ropes, others wire), or sails of completely different genus & species entirely. Including ill defined, precursors to modern Code 0's, true & otherwise. Some designs dating back centuries, literally.

So on the mentioned sail, below are some of the key characteristics which'll help define it, & it's role in one's quiver/wardrobe of sails. Specifically;
- It's luff configuration. Including anti-torsion cables, low stretch luff ropes or tapes. Free flying, hanks, or luff rope for a headstay foil.
- Any hardware used to fly it, & or furl it.
- Size relative to foretriangle, & or, I, J, & mid-girth measurements.
- Cloth weight & type.
- Type of cut/pattern.
- Wind angles covered by it/that it's optimized for. Ditto wind speeds, apparent & true.
- How often, if ever is it used with a spin pole/whisker pole.
- Where the tack gets connected to; a sprit (with or without bobstay, & retractable or fixed), bow stem, anchor roller, deck padeye - belowdecks reinforced or no, etc.
- Halyard used, including whether or not extra purchase is used for good luff tension.
*** Other key info which either describes the sail, or how & when it's flown.

FWIW, you can get a furler for your asym kite as easily as you can for a Code 0. And a lot of cruising kites cover a much broader range of wind angles & wind speeds than do Code 0's. Including flying much better when used with a pole, should you choose to run deep. Which isn't a real great option with a Code 0, or at least not true Code 0's.

Also, there aren't really many downwind/reaching sails which are intended to be left up, even if you do have them tightly furled. Which, getting a tight furl on a good percentage of such sails is an iffy proposition to start with.
So no free lunches here.

And a true Code 0 isn't all that much smaller than an asym spinnaker. Say 20% (often less difference than that). Plus if it's a true Code 0 you're dealing with much higher luff tensions, more, & more expensive hardware, etcetera, etc.


EDIT: Note that on a lot of boats too, when the wind is light, it can at times be quite beneficial to fly a staysail along with your jib/genoa. Typically one which has a wire luff, & it's own furling gear, that gets tacked to a deck padeye. And is made of fairly lightweight cloth. With various shapes, cuts, & sizes, optimized for various wind angles & speeds. Generally they're flown from spare jib or kite halyards, but some are setup to be used with the topping lift as a halyard.

Also, with any light air sails flown from a sprit, there's often the option to fly an above such staysail. Or even the jib/genoa, along with the sail on the sprit, given the right wind angles. As at times doing so can add 1/2 - 1 1/2kts of boat speed.
Witness Comanche, who often flies 3 headsails at once.
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Old 20-07-2017, 10:04   #78
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Re: Code Zero

Pardon me if I missed it, but can a Code 0 be reefed/partially furled? Or I guess I should say, do Code 0 users ever do that with success without ruining the sail?
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Old 20-07-2017, 10:24   #79
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Re: Code Zero

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Pardon me if I missed it, but can a Code 0 be reefed/partially furled? Or I guess I should say, do Code 0 users ever do that with success without ruining the sail?
That would be a no. Neither the hardware nor the sails are designed for it. And by the time you'd be considering doing such, you'd probably be best served by switching to your genoa. Or a reaching sail hanked onto a Solent Stay.
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Old 20-07-2017, 10:45   #80
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Re: Code Zero

Assuming the sail was being furled because of increasing wind, the remaining exposed cloth would be stretched beyond its elastic limit at best and torn at worst. Code 0 sails tend to come in the 2 - 3 oz cloth weight range which is not particularly strong.

So that's another no unless you are seriously disciplined and get the sail down at around 12 knots.
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Old 20-07-2017, 11:28   #81
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Code Zero

OK, pretty sure to furl an asymmetrical sail, the furling equipment to do so is much more expensive, the cruising code zero is attached very similar to a Genoa, from my little understanding it is essentially a lightweight, big Genoa, about a 170, just can't be flown as close to windward as a big Genoa can, although my 135 as it overlaps the spreader, can't be flown as close as my 110 can.
It is intended to be flown like I do my 135 now, just in lighter winds, I pole out my Genoa now, and intend to pole out the cruising code zero the same way.

Ann, I do understand your point about waiting, and that was my intent, wait a year. Well let's just say I'm impatient and leave it at that, plus it is cheaper to do it now as the mast is down, etc., etc. I may even save my pennies and buy an Asymetrical in a year or two and the additional pieces that will be needed with my furling set up now, pretty sure that change over would not be hard to do just expensive, just store them in separate bags of course.
Let's see first how this thing goes downwind, from my little experience my best observation about direct downwind is it's sure a slow way to sail most days, and often hot too.

Yes, it cannot be reefed, it's either all in or all out, but as Uncivilized said, by the time you need to reef it, its best to furl it and unfurl the Genoa.

This gives me three headsails, the 110, a new 135 and now the cruising code zero.

And yes from my understanding, there is little if any difference between a cruising code zero and a Gennaker, perhaps by calling it a cruising code zero, it sounds new and sells better, a marketing thing, maybe. Plus I'm sure as there are no rules one sailmakers idea of what a cruising code zero is will vary from others, I feel sure the way it's cut If done right will vary from one boat to the next

My IP is not a light wind boat and nothing will make her one, however I believe this will make her a lighter wind boat.
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Old 20-07-2017, 11:33   #82
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Re: Code Zero

Oh, and I'm not in information overload, keep it coming , I appreciate all the info I can get, however I have committed to the sail, paid for it, too late to talk me out of it now
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Old 20-07-2017, 11:48   #83
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Oh, and I'm not in information overload, keep it coming , I appreciate all the info I can get, however I have committed to the sail, paid for it, too late to talk me out of it now
Maybe it will be soft and make a good cushion in the cockpit!
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Old 20-07-2017, 11:48   #84
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Re: Code Zero

Other thing that ought to be very easy to do is fly both the Genoa and the cruising code zero downwind.
I had intended to fly twin headsails, which of course would require another halyard and hoisting the second Genoa in the second track, which is more work and less sail area than the code zero and Genoa.
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Old 20-07-2017, 12:00   #85
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Re: Code Zero

So it is only good for 0-10 knots. Even a big spinnaker ain't too hard to handle in 0-10 knots, no? Socks worked pretty well I thought..... sounds to me like a "cruising" Code zero is not giving so much benefit in upwind to make it worth it perhaps??? Be nice to see a pro/con + wind angles + wind speeds list for cruising code zero, gennaker, assymetrical, drifter, big genoa, twin headsails..., cruising spinnaker, garden variety spinnaker,... what have I missed? OK who's on it?
But now that you have ordered the sail, go have fun with it and better unsubscribe from this thread!
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Old 20-07-2017, 12:18   #86
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
So it is only good for 0-10 knots. Even a big spinnaker ain't too hard to handle in 0-10 knots, no? Socks worked pretty well I thought..... sounds to me like a "cruising" Code zero is not giving so much benefit in upwind to make it worth it perhaps??? Be nice to see a pro/con + wind angles + wind speeds list for cruising code zero, gennaker, assymetrical, drifter, big genoa, twin headsails..., cruising spinnaker, garden variety spinnaker,... what have I missed? OK who's on it?
But now that you have ordered the sail, go have fun with it and better unsubscribe from this thread!
Correction on the above: Very little is fun to handle in 0-3kts. Well, except board flat, hard sheeted in mains & windseeker jibs.

As to the above wind range & angles request. Take a peek at the North Sails website, & view each sail range, including their downloadable PDF charts with said info-graphic https://northsails.com/sailing/en/sail-types/downwind
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Old 20-07-2017, 12:50   #87
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
100% agree.....what is that type of sail specifically called? Light weight, loose luff very large genoa. Its not really a code zero and its not a genoa in the traditional sense.
I call them all Genoa Zero. The Code Zero lore is just a racing lingo and it was a Zero to avoid being counted as a white sail (or as a kite, whichever, in any case to avoid being counted as a specific class of sail according to then existing rules).

Many sailmakers use many names for such sails when they are built for the cruising boat.

E.g. Doyle calls them a UPS:

Utility Power Sail | UPS | Cruising Spinnaker by Doyle Sailmakers

and other big guns like North, Quantum, Incidences will use different names for the same cut.

I, however, am going a different route. My next sail will be like a vela latina racing sail made in stormlite. It will be flown of a furler without a wire (just like a code zero is). The reason is that our boat is very small and sea swell will shake any light winds off the sail unless the sail is stiff enough, small enough and flat enough.

I say this again match your light wind sails with your hull parameters and your typical sailing routes/areas. About the only truly universal sail (other than the main) is a light flat undercut blade jib. Proper zeroes are fine for big stable boats or ones sailed in flat waters, they are less useful deep offshore with smaller craft or craft with round bilges (that is most old school cruising craft).

Cheers,
b.
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Old 20-07-2017, 12:59   #88
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
So it is only good for 0-10 knots. Even a big spinnaker ain't too hard to handle in 0-10 knots, no? Socks worked pretty well I thought..... sounds to me like a "cruising" Code zero is not giving so much benefit in upwind to make it worth it perhaps??? Be nice to see a pro/con + wind angles + wind speeds list for cruising code zero, gennaker, assymetrical, drifter, big genoa, twin headsails..., cruising spinnaker, garden variety spinnaker,... what have I missed? OK who's on it?

But now that you have ordered the sail, go have fun with it and better unsubscribe from this thread!


No, supposedly wind limitation is 22 kts apparent, however I can't see flying that big a sail in 20 kts of apparent wind, I think I'd have it down with anything sustained over 10 as my regular sails do well if apparent wind speed is over 10 kts
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Old 20-07-2017, 13:01   #89
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Re: Code Zero

An issue in developing want you ask for is, there is no established formula for what a cruising code zero has to meet, and I believe different boats will perform differently?

I think the answer when you try to get to fine details is, it depends.
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Old 20-07-2017, 13:41   #90
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Re: Code Zero

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
It would help the majority of us if you were to better define the above sail. As I've seen "jib top reachers" which were flown; from the headstay, from 2nd headstay or Solent Stay, flown loose luffed on their own furler (as staysails) which got tacked to a deck padeye (some having kevlar luff ropes, others wire), or sails of completely different genus & species entirely. Including ill defined, precursors to modern Code 0's, true & otherwise. Some designs dating back centuries, literally.

So on the mentioned sail, below are some of the key characteristics which'll help define it, & it's role in one's quiver/wardrobe of sails. Specifically;
- It's luff configuration. Including anti-torsion cables, low stretch luff ropes or tapes. Free flying, hanks, or luff rope for a headstay foil.
- Any hardware used to fly it, & or furl it.
- Size relative to foretriangle, & or, I, J, & mid-girth measurements.
- Cloth weight & type.
- Type of cut/pattern.
- Wind angles covered by it/that it's optimized for. Ditto wind speeds, apparent & true.
- How often, if ever is it used with a spin pole/whisker pole.
- Where the tack gets connected to; a sprit (with or without bobstay, & retractable or fixed), bow stem, anchor roller, deck padeye - belowdecks reinforced or no, etc.
- Halyard used, including whether or not extra purchase is used for good luff tension.
*** Other key info which either describes the sail, or how & when it's flown.

FWIW, you can get a furler for your asym kite as easily as you can for a Code 0. And a lot of cruising kites cover a much broader range of wind angles & wind speeds than do Code 0's. Including flying much better when used with a pole, should you choose to run deep. Which isn't a real great option with a Code 0, or at least not true Code 0's.

Also, there aren't really many downwind/reaching sails which are intended to be left up, even if you do have them tightly furled. Which, getting a tight furl on a good percentage of such sails is an iffy proposition to start with.
So no free lunches here.

And a true Code 0 isn't all that much smaller than an asym spinnaker. Say 20% (often less difference than that). Plus if it's a true Code 0 you're dealing with much higher luff tensions, more, & more expensive hardware, etcetera, etc.


EDIT: Note that on a lot of boats too, when the wind is light, it can at times be quite beneficial to fly a staysail along with your jib/genoa. Typically one which has a wire luff, & it's own furling gear, that gets tacked to a deck padeye. And is made of fairly lightweight cloth. With various shapes, cuts, & sizes, optimized for various wind angles & speeds. Generally they're flown from spare jib or kite halyards, but some are setup to be used with the topping lift as a halyard.

Also, with any light air sails flown from a sprit, there's often the option to fly an above such staysail. Or even the jib/genoa, along with the sail on the sprit, given the right wind angles. As at times doing so can add 1/2 - 1 1/2kts of boat speed.
Witness Comanche, who often flies 3 headsails at once.
Hi uncivilized, the jib top reacher I had was run exactly the same as I ran the assymetrical, tack from pullpit ( freedom pullpit designed to handle small spinnaker) in a sock and hoisted on normal spinnaker haiyard. It really appeared to be cut similar to high clewed genoa but with rope luff. I could run it from 60° to 170°. Im no expert that's how it appeared to me.

Ive asked two sailmakers about furlers for the assymetrical and both had the opinion that furling assymetricals wasnt overly successful due to so much belly in the sails. In fairness I haven't put alot of research into it, will do at the end of the year.

Not looking at keeping the lightvwind sail up permanently but do want to have option of needing to get it down as soon as I'm not using it.

You often see cats with some sort of reacher or light weight sail on a prodder kept up, what are they doing regarding uv etc?
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