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Old 06-03-2019, 21:56   #1
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Brummel Splice.

All eye splicing videos I have watched, on 12 strand Dyneema, always pass the "short" end through the line first. If one passes the "long" end first, it seems to me that this will give a noose effect, and the eye will be a tighter, neater fit around the thimble. Then the short end, central taper, and bury as usual. I cannot find anything on this option, and am very interested in any information available which points out why it is not done this way.
Please, wise men, lay it on me.
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Old 06-03-2019, 22:39   #2
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrigo View Post
All eye splicing videos I have watched, on 12 strand Dyneema, always pass the "short" end through the line first. If one passes the "long" end first, it seems to me that this will give a noose effect, and the eye will be a tighter, neater fit around the thimble. Then the short end, central taper, and bury as usual. I cannot find anything on this option, and am very interested in any information available which points out why it is not done this way.
Please, wise men, lay it on me.

I'm not sure I'm quite visualizing what you propose, but you certainly don't want any "noose effect". The purpose of using brummels in an eye splice is to immobilize the buried tail so it doesn't slip out or shake loose when it's not under load.


You can make the eye as tight as you like simply by regulating the placement of the brummels; no need for any "noose".
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Old 07-03-2019, 19:51   #3
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Re: Brummel Splice.

If you pass the long end first, then the tail, all you're doing is re-burying the tail after a couple of picks--it's as though nothing had happened. There will be no locking effect, which is, as Dockhead pointed out, the point of the Brummel.
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Old 07-03-2019, 21:36   #4
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Correct. It’s called a Brummel Lock. There’s no such thing as a Brummel Splice.
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Old 18-03-2019, 19:57   #5
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Re: Brummel Splice.

So nobody knows?
Tillsbury, forming joins, eyes, etc. with the strands of a rope is called splicing. If a Brummel lock is used, it is a Brummel Splice. Google it.
Benz, I don't understand your point, but reburying a tail that hasn't been buried yet is a strange thing to say. There is a locking effect, but it reduces the eye to zero unless one uses a thimble.
Dockhead, the noose effect makes the eye tighter on the thimble than the conventional splice, as Dyneema has to be "plumped up" for any splicing to be done, so the same tightness cannot be achieved.

No worthwhile answers, so I have tried it myself and it seems good. I am going to contact splicing businesses to find out what I am missing.
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Old 18-03-2019, 20:14   #6
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Re: Brummel Splice.

So I am guessing you have seen this one of the "Brummel lock-splice." I am trying to see how what you are proposing will be advantageous and how you'll finish it off, but I am curious to see what you come up with. Send photos! If I understand you, you want the noose to seize the thimble more tightly, is that correct? And then it will lock when it has clamped the thimble? In that case it's not really "locked," is it?
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Old 18-03-2019, 20:18   #7
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Re: Brummel Splice.

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Originally Posted by Patrigo View Post
So nobody knows?
Tillsbury, forming joins, eyes, etc. with the strands of a rope is called splicing. If a Brummel lock is used, it is a Brummel Splice. Google it.
No, it's called a splice, and it may or may not have a Brummel lock. Contrary to popular opinion, Google isn't always correct. The Brummel only locks when it's not under load. The splice is the part that does the work when under load. The belief that the Brummel lock is a splice in and of itself is what leads to some very dodgy ropework.
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Old 18-03-2019, 20:59   #8
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Re: Brummel Splice.

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Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
No, it's called a splice, and it may or may not have a Brummel lock. Contrary to popular opinion, Google isn't always correct. The Brummel only locks when it's not under load. The splice is the part that does the work when under load. The belief that the Brummel lock is a splice in and of itself is what leads to some very dodgy ropework.

Exactly. As revealed in a recent tragic accident and explained here:


https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_12514-1.html



The standard method for forming eyes in hollow braid ropes, like that in question, is a long bury splice, where the tail is about 72 line diameters long. Like a paper finger trap, the harder the rope pulls, the more the herring bone weave contracts on the buried tail.
To prevent the long bury splice from loosening as the rope flops around unloaded, the tail is locked in place at the base of the eye with either lock stitching or a Brummel lock. Neither adds much strength to the splice, and both are intended only to stabilize the splice when unloaded, something all splices can benefit from.
Because there was not enough space for a long bury on each tail, the rigger apparently relied on the Brummel lock alone to carry the load.
This decision was based on the misconception that a Brummel lock actually “locks” the lines together and can carry safely load. In actual fact, a single Brummel (two passes), such as used on Ichor Coal, can hold only 40-60 percent of breaking strength before failing, which it did.
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Old 18-03-2019, 22:47   #9
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Re: Brummel Splice.

I am not proposing to change the way an eye splice has been done in the past, I am just asking a question. When motor cars were evolving I am sure there was deliberation over which side of the vehicle the steering wheel was to be mounted. It was decided by considering which side of the road it was going to be driven on. So whoever first perfected this eye splice decided on:
No.1)short through long, long through short and finished with burying the tapered short in the long. So I am asking, what is not good about:
No.2) long through short, short through long and then bury the tapered short in the long? I have done both and I am able to get a tighter fit around the thimble with no.2 than no.1. BUT the thimble must be used or the load will cause the eye to reduce in size and pull out some of the bury. Opening the eye to its original size does not fix the slightly pulled out bury. So at inception time. no.2 was probably considered but discarded, in favour of method no.1 All I am asking is, does anybody know what led to the absolute adoption of no.2?? I am not intending to be aggressive or smart, just asking what I think is an interesting question!
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Old 19-03-2019, 12:03   #10
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Well I ain’t no knot expert but I think Stu’s quote above helps explain it. I would guess when they invented the technique they were thinking only in terms of providing a lock for the splice that did not require stitching and/or they weren’t using thimbles. So I am curious, when the line is not under a load, is the thimble prone to falling out?
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Old 22-03-2019, 03:38   #11
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Re: Brummel Splice.

To Don CL,
I have not used this splice "in anger" yet, but have messed around with it to see if I can find out any more about how it handles life! There is no tendency for the thimble to look like falling out of the eye. Under no load and messing with it a little the tightness of the eye remains unchanged. I have not heard back from any professional splicers yet.
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Old 22-03-2019, 05:15   #12
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Perhaps you could walk Seaworthylass, on this forum, or reach out to Brian Toss.
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Old 22-03-2019, 13:31   #13
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Colligo videos on the Brummel splice call it a "modified Brummel" so you're locked in on the first loop by pulling it all the way through the first go round. Not sure if this might be what you're asking about. Their videos are easy to follow.
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Old 27-03-2019, 03:34   #14
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Sorry to jump back in after all this time--I've been travelling.
Patrigo, if the splice can slide to choke tighter on the thimble, you have negated the purpose of the brummel, which is to lock the eye size so it doesn't change. The only reason to do short though long then long through short is to achieve this lock. As you've noted, doing it the other way doesn't achieve the lock: you're better off in that case just doing a straight bury without any shenanigans and simply pulling the eye tight around the thimble by snugging up the tail before you taper. You can keep it tight then with a lockstitch or a whipping.
FWIW, I am a professional rigger: my job is to stand at a bench all day and splice rope.
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Old 27-03-2019, 04:49   #15
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Re: Brummel Splice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
... FWIW, I am a professional rigger: my job is to stand at a bench all day and splice rope.
See Ben's rigging website ➥ Rigging Hardware and Accessories - Abednego Marine
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