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Old 06-06-2016, 11:25   #31
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Not sure I fully understand, but I tie a bowline that(?) way a lot, really quick, it's a bit backwards though, but pretty much the same knot. Roll the line around your hand into a loop and pull the standing part thru it. Takes about 2 seconds.
Hi Cheechako
See post # 16 for photos that will help explain.
The technique was started by actually tying an overhand, not by rolling the line around your hand. The overhand was then flipped to simultaneously form the loop and have the working end ready to pass around the standing end. It is a cool way of forming a bowline .

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Old 06-06-2016, 18:41   #32
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

Hello Seaworthy Lass,
I have to ask, is your Giorgos the captain of a 60' ish blue monohull that is based out of Kea? If so, he taught me the same knot and about 5 others last year over a few beers. This guy was amazing with knots.
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Old 06-06-2016, 22:56   #33
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

It's so quick and easy, that's about the only way I tie them. If I have to tie one normally, I have to stop and think about it first.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:09   #34
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Hello Seaworthy Lass,
I have to ask, is your Giorgos the captain of a 60' ish blue monohull that is based out of Kea? If so, he taught me the same knot and about 5 others last year over a few beers. This guy was amazing with knots.
No, he was a different Captain Yiorgos. It may be the "Greek way" of tying a bowline though .

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Originally Posted by jessehunt View Post
It's so quick and easy, that's about the only way I tie them. If I have to tie one normally, I have to stop and think about it first.
I presume you and most others are tying what is shown below, rather than tying a distinct overhand first and flipping the entire overhand plus loop, as Yiorgos did?

ie How it is drawn in The Ashley Book of Knots:




And also how it is drawn in the link StuM provided:

How to Tie a Bowline in less than 5 Seconds




I am amazed that after a few decades of tying the most essential and basic of sailing knots that I am still using the tortoise method taught by cub scouts . I will have to convert (not to Yiorgos's complete overhand, but as shown above). Live and learn .

SWL

Edited to add: Just thinking, the above is fine for forming a loose loop a standard way, but what does everyone do when the line is tied around an object? The line can come from any angle and it can go clockwise or anticlockwise around the object. With angles varying between directly towards you or away from you, you can just shift position a bit, but rotating 180° is usually not practical.
The cub scout method works from any direction.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:59   #35
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
SWL

Edited to add: Just thinking, the above is fine for forming a loose loop a standard way, but what does everyone do when the line is tied around an object? The line can come from any angle and it can go clockwise or anticlockwise around the object. With angles varying between directly towards you or away from you, you can just shift position a bit, but rotating 180° is usually not practical.
The cub scout method works from any direction.
When attaching a sheet I pass the line from right left through the clew. I then tie an overhand knot and give it a tug until the loop is transferred and working end is straight. Then I go around the standing part and back through the loop.

BTW - I need ask for some patience. Last Wednesday I ruptured the quad tendon on my right leg. I cannot sit at my desk and am working on my tablet.

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Old 07-06-2016, 11:19   #36
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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BTW - I need ask for some patience. Last Wednesday I ruptured the quad tendon on my right leg. I cannot sit at my desk and am working on my tablet.

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Owww!!!

A stand up desk can be your friend.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:42   #37
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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When attaching a sheet I pass the line from right left through the clew. I then tie an overhand knot and give it a tug until the loop is transferred and working end is straight. Then I go around the standing part and back through the loop.

BTW - I need ask for some patience. Last Wednesday I ruptured the quad tendon on my right leg. I cannot sit at my desk and am working on my tablet.
Ow! That will slow you down for a while .

That method seems to work from any direction and the overhand can be started by laying the working end either on top or underneath to start with .

Not much thought is needed. Neat method!

In the cub scout method (as I will know always think of it) I simply roll the line between my thumb and fingers with my thumb on top and moving away from where the main loop is intended. This forms a bight in the "classic" direction each time regardless of which way a line is passed around an object.

SWL
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:48   #38
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

This has been my preferred method recently for attaching a bowline to a clew or truck rack. Make a half hitch, in whichver direction is convenient, and pull on the working end (This is called capsizing the knot.) and there's the tree, the hole, and the rabbit ready to go around the tree and back down the hole.
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Old 07-06-2016, 13:33   #39
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

A friend who is the bosun on a tug tells me they tie them with the tail out. This keeps it clear of the bitts, and gives them a safe place to tie a messenger line.
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Old 08-06-2016, 06:38   #40
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

In the cub scout method (as I will know always think of it) I simply roll the line between my thumb and fingers with my thumb on top and moving away from where the main loop is intended. This forms a bight in the "classic" direction each time regardless of which way a line is passed around an object.

SWL
I had a play with the Greek skipper's method you described. It is really the Cub Scout method, with a slick way to do the first loop. I have seen a few old salts do it, but never tried it. It works fine and can sort of be done one-handed, but I can't see an easy way to do it regardless of the direction the rope is presented. How does Yiorgos do it? Or is it just for right hand U loops with the working end in the right hand?

How do you do the roll you described?

I wonder how may sailors get themselves metaphorically knotted up if the bowline has to be tied in an unusual direction?

Nearly all of my mostly not hugely experienced repertoire of crew do get in a mess sometimes. It is not an easy knot.
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:38   #41
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
How do you do the roll you described?

I wonder how may sailors get themselves metaphorically knotted up if the bowline has to be tied in an unusual direction?

Nearly all of my mostly not hugely experienced repertoire of crew do get in a mess sometimes. It is not an easy knot.
Hi Poiu

If a bowline needs to be tied around an object as opposed to just forming a loose loop, it can be confusing as hell if the line is not presented the familiar way, or at least it was for me at first.

I think just about any method will hold once the intial bight is formed correctly, but getting the bight right is really difficult without some simple method.

I "roll" the line to achieve the correct bight unfailingly. This is how it's done:

If you roll a line between your thumb and finger the line eventually twists and a loop is formed. Now, if you grip the standing end with one hand and hold the working end about 10 cm away (depends on line thickness) by putting your thumb on the top of the line and a finger underneath and roll your thumb away from the direction of the intended loop and keep rolling, the initial bight eventually always forms perfectly ie towards the direction of the intended loop and with the working end finishing on top of the bight (longest sentence I think I have ever written ). That way the working end can always go "out of the hole and around the tree and back though the hole".

The only thing you need to remember is that the working end does not pass over the tree before it goes around it. If you forget this last bit, it is no big deal, but you will end up with a "cowboy" bowline or what Ashley's calls a "left-handed bowline", where the tail is on the outside of the loop. Its similarity to a sheet bend tied incorrectly means it has been suggested this is a weaker form, but testing has shown no evidence of that.

SWL
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:40   #42
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Hi Poiu

If a bowline needs to be tied around an object as opposed to just forming a loose loop, it can be confusing as hell if the line is not presented the familiar way, or at least it was for me at first.

I think just about any method will hold once the intial bight is formed correctly, but getting the bight right is really difficult without some simple method.

I "roll" the line to achieve the correct bight unfailingly. This is how it's done:

If you roll a line between your thumb and finger the line eventually twists and a loop is formed. Now, if you grip the standing end with one hand and hold the working end about 10 cm away (depends on line thickness) by putting your thumb on the top of the line and a finger underneath and roll your thumb away from the direction of the intended loop and keep rolling, the initial bight eventually always forms perfectly ie towards the direction of the intended loop and with the working end finishing on top of the bight (longest sentence I think I have ever written ). That way the working end can always go "out of the hole and around the tree and back though the hole".

The only thing you need to remember is that the working end does not pass over the tree before it goes around it. If you forget this last bit, it is no big deal, but you will end up with a "cowboy" bowline or what Ashley's calls a "left-handed bowline", where the tail is on the outside of the loop. Its similarity to a sheet bend tied incorrectly means it has been suggested this is a weaker form, but testing has shown no evidence of that.

SWL
Thanks for that. I tried it, but I couldn't get the loop to form in the right place reliably and automatically. I tried a few different ropes. I suspect you know where it has to be and are helping it get there with a subtle push as that is all that is needed to make it fall correctly. The loop of the knot needs to be on the inside of the main big loop and as you say, with the working end on top of the loop. That done, it's into a world of bunnies and trees.

What you are doing is very similar to what I do. I just form the small loop using both hands rather than roll it.

I answered one of my own question in my previous post. I worked on the 'Greek skipper's' method and there is a simple way to do it for all directions. - Note the direction the main loop you are forming, if it is clockwise or anti-clockwise when going from standing to working end. Then make the small loop in the opposite direction. With that rule the knot can be tied in any presentation or direction.

Other rules not often spelled out is that the tree is the standing end. If the bunny goes round the wrong tree it ends in disaster. It's a dangerous world out there. Also, to avoid the cowboy version bunny needs to remember to take the shortest, quickest route round the right tree, which being at the bottom of the food chain, he will naturally want to do.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:50   #43
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Thanks for that. I tried it, but I couldn't get the loop to form in the right place reliably and automatically. I tried a few different ropes. I suspect you know where it has to be and are helping it get there with a subtle push as that is all that is needed to make it fall correctly. The loop of the knot needs to be on the inside of the main big loop and as you say, with the working end on top of the loop. That done, it's into a world of bunnies and trees.
The "subtle push" seems to be to bring both hands together as you roll ie bring together the hand holding the standing end firmly and the other hand doing the rolling. Have a go with that .


Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I answered one of my own question in my previous post. I worked on the 'Greek skipper's' method and there is a simple way to do it for all directions. - Note the direction the main loop you are forming, if it is clockwise or anti-clockwise when going from standing to working end. Then make the small loop in the opposite direction. With that rule the knot can be tied in any presentation or direction.
I am just having a play with that and writing a reply.

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Other rules not often spelled out is that the tree is the standing end. If the bunny goes round the wrong tree it ends in disaster. It's a dangerous world out there. Also, to avoid the cowboy version bunny needs to remember to take the shortest, quickest route round the right tree, which being at the bottom of the food chain, he will naturally want to do.
That is a myth I think. It does not "end in disaster" if the bunny goes around the right tree the wrong way. In fact in some circumstances, it may be better. The cowboy bunny is not one that needs to be shunned. Open to debate .

SWL
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Old 08-06-2016, 11:43   #44
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The "subtle push" seems to be to bring both hands together as you roll ie bring together the hand holding the standing end firmly and the other hand doing the rolling. Have a go with that .
Yes, I think I can make it work. What I did was push the hands together as you said, but also push the standing end hand a little towards the inside of the main loop (or where it will end up). Pushing straight up can randomly twist the wrong way.

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That is a myth I think. It does not "end in disaster" if the bunny goes around the right tree the wrong way. In fact in some circumstances, it may be better. The cowboy bunny is not one that needs to be shunned. Open to debate .

SWL
I wasn't saying that. If the bunny goes round the right tree the wrong way it is OK as The cowboy version is actually fine, though not 'proper'. I meant by going round the wrong tree he would be going round the working end. That never works .
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:01   #45
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Re: Bowline started with an overhand

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I had a play with the Greek skipper's method you described. It is really the Cub Scout method, with a slick way to do the first loop. I have seen a few old salts do it, but never tried it. It works fine and can sort of be done one-handed, but I can't see an easy way to do it regardless of the direction the rope is presented. How does Yiorgos do it? Or is it just for right hand U loops with the working end in the right hand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I answered one of my own question in my previous post. I worked on the 'Greek skipper's' method and there is a simple way to do it for all directions. - Note the direction the main loop you are forming, if it is clockwise or anti-clockwise when going from standing to working end. Then make the small loop in the opposite direction. With that rule the knot can be tied in any presentation or direction.
Yiorgos is splashing his boat within a couple of weeks and we have exchanged email addresses. I suggested we meet up and he come around for dinner, so I will quiz him then what he does when the line is passed around objects in different directions .

In the meantime, I have played a bit with the overhand method (irresistible ).

Yiorgos's technique of flipping the loop just doesn't work well at all when the bowline needs to be made around an object. You end up with an ungainly twist in the loop while trying to complete the knot. This is then further complicated if the line is presented in anything other than the familiar way for a loose loop.

The overhand technique shown in the link Estarzinger gave ( Fastest Ways to Tie a Bowline Knotā€”Rapid Bowline (Lightning Method)ā€”Bowline Variations ), which is the same method I guess Jackdale uses, seems to be fantastic for tying around an object for any direction whether the line is passing from right to left relative to you or left to right.

The one thing you need to remember to do is start the overhand with the working end lying over the standing, otherwise the bunny has dived into the hole rather than emerged and the following procedure is also reversed, which complicates things (this is actually what they have presented in the link for some weird reason).

Also, I found "yanking" the line as suggested did not work well though, and this failed completely if the line was stiff. The overhand needs to be tied very loosely and the working end coaxed into a straight line (vital) by pulling towards you then away to one side. A simple yank will frequently just bind the overhand.

I still like my "rolling the working end" method to form the bight, as I am so familiar with it, but in my opinion the easiest way of forming a bowline with a loose loop is using the method Ashley shows (see post #34 for diagrams) and the easiest way around an object is by tying an overhand starting with the working end on top of the standing and using the link Estarzinger gave.

Tying a bowline around an object is tricky when the line is presented in anything but the configuration people are familiar with when tying a loose bowline loop, and therefore the take home message from all this is that some set technique needs to be employed to deal with this. This then needs to be practised a fair bit to become engrained in muscle memory and become reliable .

SWL
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