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Old 27-06-2014, 16:59   #16
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Re: Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
I use the 150 genoa winched tight sail about 15-20 off the wind on a close haul, main down. Columbia 26mk2.
15 degrees off the wind? I doubt it.
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Old 27-06-2014, 17:57   #17
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Re: Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
I have a mylar blade (20%)

I never use it. Came with the boat guy who put on all the deck hardware was a hardcore racer, works rigging boats for americas cup now, did an amazing job on this boat, apparently he won all he rvyc races with it.

Winds here are very high, squamish bc. Not uncommon to see 20-30 kt winds on a sunny day. I use the 150 genoa winched tight sail about 15-20 off the wind on a close haul, main down. Columbia 26mk2.

But heres a picture of the car tracks he installed for the blade.

And yes shes dirty as hell.
Two comments:

Using your 150 in 30 knots is not a good idea (on most boats). These large headsails are designed for light wind conditions in general, and the cloth will be stretched out of shape by this practice.

And sailing (especially without the main) at 15-20 degrees is not likely in any boat, let alone a Columbia 26. That would result in a tacking angle of 40 degrees or so, and that is not remotely possible.

Jim
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Old 27-06-2014, 18:59   #18
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Re: Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Two comments:

Using your 150 in 30 knots is not a good idea (on most boats). These large headsails are designed for light wind conditions in general, and the cloth will be stretched out of shape by this practice.

And sailing (especially without the main) at 15-20 degrees is not likely in any boat, let alone a Columbia 26. That would result in a tacking angle of 40 degrees or so, and that is not remotely possible.

Jim

Im not saying its proper sailing technique but it works.

The boat sails incredibly close to the wind. The wind vane was halfway between centre and the marker and the markers are 60 degrees apart. Maybe its just this Col26 and sail arrangement but ive always been amazed at how she points upwind.
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Old 27-06-2014, 19:35   #19
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Re: Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
Im not saying its proper sailing technique but it works.

The boat sails incredibly close to the wind. The wind vane was halfway between centre and the marker and the markers are 60 degrees apart. Maybe its just this Col26 and sail arrangement but ive always been amazed at how she points upwind.
Ahhh, I see! Another case of Mk I eyeball being calibrated to great accuracy.

No offense should be taken Mr Canada, but I fear that you are deluding yourself with this belief.

I suggest the following experiment. It will not give absolutely accurate data, but it will be far more accurate than peering up at a windex at the masthead.

Next time you are sailing, find an area with little or better no current and steady wind. Sail at your supposed 15 to 20 degrees to the wind on either tack and watch your compass for a couple of minutes. Note the average heading as best you can. Tack the boat and repeat the exercise. Note the difference between compass headings and divide by two. That is how close to the wind you are sailing. Your course made good, including leeway, will not be as good on either tack, and in reality should be what you report. The reason for this is that as you pinch up beyond optimum pointing angle your leeway will increase, often dramatically. This is especially true when sailing on the jib alone, BTW.

If you have a good GPS you can change the experiment by noting the COG instead of the compass heading. The difference between the tacks, again divided by two, is your real tacking angle. I'd bet a substantial amount that the numbers will be significantly greater than 15-20 degrees if the experiment is done honestly.

If not, you should be racing your boat... you will be outpointing everyone, even the America's cup 12 metres which were extremely close winded vessels, but typically could tack in around 65 to 70 degrees.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 27-06-2014, 19:50   #20
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Re: Blade Jib

I understand your skepticism, its legit.

The guy who maxed this thing out now rigs americas cup boats. Maybe he did something really special. It wasnt the seller who told me this, it was a rigger i hired to fix a stay. He said my boat won all the rvyc races for a spell and was quite well known. It still has rvyc decals on the back. Rvyc is a pretty wealthy group.

Apparently my jib halyard is worth $5000. I cant remember the name of the material he told me it was, but it is a quarter the thickness and ten times the strength, he told me hes never seen a columbia with all this stuff. Fancy backstay tensioner, multiple car rails. Not saying i know how to use most of it at all im pretty green as a sailor.

My sailing instructor was loving my rigging and conferred with how well it points to the wind. We were doing a lesson on my boat into the wind, 150 genoa with main on second reef, he said we were only 20 degrees off the wind and we were clocking 9 knots COG on the GPS in slack current.

My first cruise with a 2 knot current and a 18 kt tailwind genoa alone we were doing COG 11kts in following seas. A guy with a jenneau 35 left 15 minutes after me in the same direction with 30 years sailing experience who is also the captain of the local search and rescue was so far behind i couldnt even see him. TBH i was looking for him because i was quite nervous first time id gone so far from home and having him tail me would give me confidence if something went wrong id have the right guy to ask for help.

Im no sailing expert and consider myself a rookie but i dont know... Maybe theres just a spirit of ass hauling racing baked into this thing. So dont get me wrong its been confirmed by my sailing instructor, the guy who sold me the boat and a rigger as well as my own experience this thing points to windward amazing.

Thank god the boat seems to do it for me lol because it sure as hell isnt me. The rigger told me i should be racing this thing. Im more of a cruiser.
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Old 27-06-2014, 20:00   #21
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Re: Blade Jib

Dockhead,

We do this all the time, every year. In summer with our high winds here, I run an 85% jib. Winter lighter winds or racing I use our "big headsail" - a 110!!! I've been doing this for almost 20 years.

You may not be able to read this link, if not, pm me and I'll get the text to you.

Jib Sail Size Selection:

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

Big Jib or Small Jib - SailboatOwners.com

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.
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Old 27-06-2014, 20:35   #22
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Re: Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
Im not saying its proper sailing technique but it works.

The boat sails incredibly close to the wind. The wind vane was halfway between centre and the marker and the markers are 60 degrees apart. Maybe its just this Col26 and sail arrangement but ive always been amazed at how she points upwind.

What you describe is impossible.

I would expect a Columbia 26 to tack through something close to 80 degrees. The closest winded boat that ever was is the 12 meter and they tack through 63 - 67 degrees depending on wave height.
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Old 27-06-2014, 20:44   #23
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Re: Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
I understand your skepticism, its legit.

The guy who maxed this thing out now rigs americas cup boats. Maybe he did something really special. It wasnt the seller who told me this, it was a rigger i hired to fix a stay. He said my boat won all the rvyc races for a spell and was quite well known. It still has rvyc decals on the back. Rvyc is a pretty wealthy group.

Apparently my jib halyard is worth $5000. I cant remember the name of the material he told me it was, but it is a quarter the thickness and ten times the strength, he told me hes never seen a columbia with all this stuff. Fancy backstay tensioner, multiple car rails. Not saying i know how to use most of it at all im pretty green as a sailor.

My sailing instructor was loving my rigging and conferred with how well it points to the wind. We were doing a lesson on my boat into the wind, 150 genoa with main on second reef, he said we were only 20 degrees off the wind and we were clocking 9 knots COG on the GPS in slack current.

My first cruise with a 2 knot current and a 18 kt tailwind genoa alone we were doing COG 11kts in following seas. A guy with a jenneau 35 left 15 minutes after me in the same direction with 30 years sailing experience who is also the captain of the local search and rescue was so far behind i couldnt even see him. TBH i was looking for him because i was quite nervous first time id gone so far from home and having him tail me would give me confidence if something went wrong id have the right guy to ask for help.

Im no sailing expert and consider myself a rookie but i dont know... Maybe theres just a spirit of ass hauling racing baked into this thing. So dont get me wrong its been confirmed by my sailing instructor, the guy who sold me the boat and a rigger as well as my own experience this thing points to windward amazing.

Thank god the boat seems to do it for me lol because it sure as hell isnt me. The rigger told me i should be racing this thing. Im more of a cruiser.

9 knots to windward in a Columbia 26 ?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Get back under your bridge with all the other trolls before I pee in my pants.


Maybe you could donate that $5000 halyard to the Smithsonian.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 27-06-2014, 21:57   #24
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Re: Blade Jib

Meh. Whatever. GPS doesnt lie, and i doubt my CYA sailing instructor or rigger would be full of it independently of eachother.

Im no troll and i havent got anything to prove.
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Old 27-06-2014, 22:35   #25
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Re: Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
Meh. Whatever. GPS doesnt lie, and i doubt my CYA sailing instructor or rigger would be full of it independently of eachother.

Im no troll and i havent got anything to prove.
Mr Canada, I don't think you are a troll, but I do think that you may have been mislead.

I've already pointed out that your beliefs on your pointing ability do not sound reasonable to me, and suggested a way that you could verify the facts.

Now you claim that your Col 26 will do 9 knots to windward. Mate, this really isn't very likely. Your LWL is only about 21.5 feet. This translates to a hull speed of around 6.2 knots. No displacement hull yacht can do 150% of hull speed to windward... not one, anywhere in the world.

I do believe that you may have a very well set up Col 26, and that it sails well for its design. But really, no known tweaking by a rigger, no matter what his creds, can result in performance such as you claim. Hydrodynamics trumps tweaking in the real world.

And 5000 dollar halyards? Your I dimension is 31.5 feet. This translates to a halyard length of less than 75 feet, including the waste length for an eye splice. That works out to about 67 dollars a foot, and that is around ten times the cost of very high tech cordage indeed.

I have no gripe with you, but I'm compelled to say that insisting that these claims are true will not enhance your stature here. You mention that you are somewhat new to sailing, and I fear that people have encouraged you to believe the unbelievable. I'd encourage you to do some research on your own, reading on subjects like hull speed and performance limits of fabric sails. It might be educational.

Meanwhile, I'll get off my soapbox and hope that you get in some good sailing this weekend.

Jim
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Old 27-06-2014, 22:53   #26
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Re: Blade Jib

Ive done a lot of research. Im new to sailing but not ignorant.

I was doing 11kts with a 2 kt current on the chart, COG by gps, current with me, i timed it. With the wind headsail only 150.

With the sailing instructor it was slack tide gps read 9 kts to windward and he was teaching us close hauled sailing. It was funny sugar cubes and sh.t flying all around the cabin we were heeled allright. 150 genoa with main reefed to 2nd.

The sailing instructor was on the phone with his old lady afterwards bewildered talking about how fast we were moving.

I take no offense to your skepticism, its the other guy who called me a troll not ye.

But this thing hauls ass beyond my wildest expectations.

The rigger went off about this thing because hes a big racer and he knew the boat, apparently a previous owner consistently crushed him with it. I dont know the halyard material for the jib that estimate was the riggers but he sold halyards and he wasnt trying to sell me a new one obviously, real honest guy gave me a great deal.

Some of my numbers might not be off but if your talking $70 a foot i wouldnt doubt it at rvyc was a hand me down. My company sponsors a regatta there and theres a boat there that has a $250,000 set of custom itialian made sails boat is sponsored by hugo boss and ive never in my life seen a boat with 4 sets of spreaders.

You probably think im nuts talking about a col 26 mk2 with this crap on it and i dont blame you. Looks like it sails like a pig but bill tripp is well known for hitting the mark with this hull plus this nutbar americas cup guy rebuilding the rig she moves.

I couldnt beleive making it as far and as fast as i did first trip out. Had a few buddies out for what was supposed to be 10-15 kt easy daysail with the 150 headsail up turned out to be 30-40 gust 50 and it.was pointing to windward sharp so heeling at 50 degrees turned it closer to windward to reduce heel and once i got the mast back up we were flying i wqs expecting us to stop and hit irons.

Beleive what you want perhaps my numbers arent exact but im not full of it. She flies. I wish i had an interest in racing but i dont want to blow out sails and hardware.

You sound very knowledgeable. I dont question your experience at all.
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Old 27-06-2014, 23:06   #27
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Re: Blade Jib

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......I have a fantasy of sailing like a knife through the water in a typical English Channel 25 knot breeze, 30 degrees off the apparent wind, under blade jib and reefed main, hardly heeling, bow wave throwing up a fine spray as we romp along at 9.5 knots.

What do you guys think? Wet dream, or achievable reality?

Obviously you need to get a smaller boat!
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Old 27-06-2014, 23:13   #28
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Re: Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Ahhh, I see! Another case of Mk I eyeball being calibrated to great accuracy.

No offense should be taken Mr Canada, but I fear that you are deluding yourself with this belief.

I suggest the following experiment. It will not give absolutely accurate data, but it will be far more accurate than peering up at a windex at the masthead.

Next time you are sailing, find an area with little or better no current and steady wind. Sail at your supposed 15 to 20 degrees to the wind on either tack and watch your compass for a couple of minutes. Note the average heading as best you can. Tack the boat and repeat the exercise. Note the difference between compass headings and divide by two. That is how close to the wind you are sailing. Your course made good, including leeway, will not be as good on either tack, and in reality should be what you report. The reason for this is that as you pinch up beyond optimum pointing angle your leeway will increase, often dramatically. This is especially true when sailing on the jib alone, BTW.

If you have a good GPS you can change the experiment by noting the COG instead of the compass heading. The difference between the tacks, again divided by two, is your real tacking angle. I'd bet a substantial amount that the numbers will be significantly greater than 15-20 degrees if the experiment is done honestly.

If not, you should be racing your boat... you will be outpointing everyone, even the America's cup 12 metres which were extremely close winded vessels, but typically could tack in around 65 to 70 degrees.

Cheers,

Jim
One thing though - a fast boat, even though it sails at a very high AWA, can still end up tacking through big angles - because of it's speed.

For instance, if you can sail at 10 knots at 25' AWA in 10 knots TWS, you'll be tacking through 100 degrees.

Probably the most amazing example of the difference boatspeed makes to tacking angles is the AC 72's. Reportedly there was only a 4 degree difference in AWA between sailing upwind and sailing downwind!
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Old 27-06-2014, 23:17   #29
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Re: Blade Jib

Now we're carrying a 150 genoa in 30-40 knots with 50 knot gusts in a 26 footer?
We're heeling 50 degrees, so we just point a bit higher and really start to fly?

Get real!
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Old 27-06-2014, 23:24   #30
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Re: Blade Jib

Yeah, that's the ticket...
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