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Old 07-11-2015, 15:05   #16
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

Just use a standard hitch or cow hitch the amount of slippage would be minimal and on a storm jib really how often would you need to use it. Readjust the sheets as needed when you take the sail down. Before you store it so you don't have to do it " in the slop"
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Old 07-11-2015, 15:14   #17
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if one doubled the Cow Hitch, turning it into a Prussic Hitch, if it would cure both the potential slippage and the jamming?

Any thoughts from the knot gurus?

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I tried the Prussic Hitch (a doubled Cow Hitch) one season when we sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii and back. It still slipped, but perhaps not as much as the Cow Hitch did on my previous trip. As I recall, one sheet was about two feet shorter than the other when we got back to San Francisco. I do not remember if it was easier / harder to untie.

One year I tried a cow hitch, but with the sheets seized where they exited the hitch. After 5000 miles the seizing had broken and the hitch had slipped.

Again, I'm sure that this also depends on the slipperiness of the line being used. In my case the hitch didn't slip enough to cause any problems, but it did slip.

And yes, the cow hitch does jam up tight and after hard use it is difficult to untie -- at least when hitched around a stainless clew ring. Perhaps with a traditional grommeted clew this wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, after a while it is time to end-for-end the sheets, so I cut the cow hitch apart and tie the (now separate) sheets to the clew with buntline hitches. The buntline hitch is also best untied with a sharp knife.
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Old 07-11-2015, 15:24   #18
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

Our Genoa Sheet/s and Staysail (AKAStormJib) are sheeted in the middle of the line with clove hitch, it has never slipped and there are two wraps for chafe. Been like this for several Trans-Atlantics and about 10 years.
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Old 07-11-2015, 15:25   #19
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Not clear to me how one uses soft shackles to attach the center of a single long sheet... explain, if you please SWL!

Jim
Alpine Butterfly in the centre of the sheet with a soft shackle between the loop and the clew.
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Old 07-11-2015, 15:31   #20
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Alpine Butterfly in the centre of the sheet with a soft shackle between the loop and the clew.
An Alpine B will jam when loaded on the loop and one end, but I guess this probably isn't an issue. I have seen this used.
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Old 07-11-2015, 18:21   #21
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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An Alpine B will jam when loaded on the loop and one end, but I guess this probably isn't an issue. I have seen this used.
Possibly that should be a "may"?

Are you sure that your jammed Alpine Butterfly was properly dressed?
The crossed one on the right can jam, but I've never experienced the one on the left jamming.
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Old 07-11-2015, 18:34   #22
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

This is for a storm jib on a 48 ft. boat. I would cut it, and tie it on with bowlines. I would not care much about clunky looks. In storm jib conditions, its appearance is not of importance to me, but the security of the bowlines is. Ymmv. Then get another line if you want to have a separate reaching sheet or spare genoa sheet.

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Old 07-11-2015, 20:59   #23
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Possibly that should be a "may"?

Are you sure that your jammed Alpine Butterfly was properly dressed?
The crossed one on the right can jam, but I've never experienced the one on the left jamming.
It is possibly a "may" . There is no consensus on what is the "correct" or "best" way to dress it, even in the IGKT. How many ways did we decide you could dress an Alpine Butterfly? I think it was about 6 or 8 from memory. They would not function identically.

The only version I tie is the uncrossed one in your left photo (the crossing ends up on the reverse side of the knot).

I was testing for slippage of other knots (I had used the AB as the loop on one of the winches to attach the knot being tested) when I discovered this. I had no idea the AB would behave this way. It did not yield to a marlin spike . It was one of the very rare knots I have ever had to cut off.

I initially thought I had tied it incorrectly and tried again. Same thing. Out of curiosity I tested it loaded on the ends a couple of times and this did not occur.

The AB skews and one portion clamps down as an overhand when loaded to a high degree on one end and the loop. It ends up looking downright weird in the process. Try it between two winches and see.

SWL
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Old 07-11-2015, 21:05   #24
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

I'm well into the novice camp when it comes to knots and stuff. But a cow hitch seems like the perfect solution here. It's amazingly simple. Sure it can be hard to undo (but a marinlspike would work) and it can slip a bit, but it's the right knot for the problem presented.

Everything else is way too complicated. OTOH, Seaworthy lass has forgotten more about knots than I ever learned.
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Old 07-11-2015, 22:55   #25
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
I'm well into the novice camp when it comes to knots and stuff. But a cow hitch seems like the perfect solution here. It's amazingly simple. Sure it can be hard to undo (but a marinlspike would work) and it can slip a bit, but it's the right knot for the problem presented.

Everything else is way too complicated. OTOH, Seaworthy lass has forgotten more about knots than I ever learned.
jeepbluetj,

Consider again the boat, a 48 footer. Consider under what conditions he'd be inclined to fly a storm jib. If he uses a cowhitch, and he really has storm conditions, he'll have to cut it anyway. Marlinspike is wonderful, but the forces of the wind are huge at the higher levels-- the psi raises geometrically.

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Old 08-11-2015, 03:28   #26
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
jeepbluetj,

Consider again the boat, a 48 footer. Consider under what conditions he'd be inclined to fly a storm jib. If he uses a cowhitch, and he really has storm conditions, he'll have to cut it anyway. Marlinspike is wonderful, but the forces of the wind are huge at the higher levels-- the psi raises geometrically.

Ann
Cow hitch or Butterfly, if you use a soft shackle to attach it to the clew, you will never have to cut the sheet line, you cut the shackle if necessary.

Sure, if the knot jams, you now have a permanent knot in the middle of your double length sheet, but you still have the longer line for any other purpose. (and if you've use a Butterfly, you still have a useful loop to re-use on the sheet another time.

I stand by the Butterfly + soft shackle recommendation
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:14   #27
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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Soft shackles.
And how to attach the soft shackle to the line?
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:19   #28
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

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We have a spare jib sheet that I want to use for our storm jib. This spare is long enough where if I can attach the center point of the line at the clew, I have enough line to run sheets to both sides of the boat. I'd prefer not to have to cut the line so it can still be used as a spare for the normal jib, but concerned about the best knot to use. I'm assuming a standard hitch would slowly slip through the clew? Any suggestions?


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For one long sheet, you may pass it through the clew eye.
Align tails to be of same length.
Make figures of eight on both sides of the eye, dress the figures to be close to the eye to keep line in place.
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:36   #29
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

Double 8.

Pass the line through the clew eye, then holding the doubled up line, tie an eight knot close to the clew.

Please note, this is very different from the suggestion by meirriba (above). He's suggesting the classic figure 8 as a stopper knot.

This knot is used by climbers because it WILL NOT SLIP.
I use it on my jib sheets. Why would I use a lesser knot?

Like a bowline, you can always "break its back" to untie later, no matter how tight.

Others suggest a cow hitch, but I don't trust a cow hitch under great pressure not to slip. And who wants to go up on the bow to correct this mistake at the worst possible time. Is it worth risking your life?

If you want to use a shackle, soft or hard, a bowline on a bight will suffice. But I find that a shackle adds weight, cost and complexity for no reason. And hard shackles will catch on your rigging or hit you in the eye. Ouch. What is your eyeball worth?
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:40   #30
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Re: Best knot to attach single line to jib clew?

If the grommet or Clevis on the sail is large enough to put a bight of the center of the line through, then pull the free end of the line through that loop and pull the standing end tight. It won't slip and comes loose after being wet and or cold
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