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Old 16-12-2008, 07:58   #1
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Best halyards in the world!

I thought the title might get some folks attention......but maybe I am not far off.....:-) I think the 1st link is the best in the world.

Ina previous thread I ask if anyone had load calculations that come to bear on halyards.....after a few days I still see no response. I have done some searching my self and realize it is a pretty fuzzy area this halyard sizing stuff.

http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e910.asp

Sail Loading on Rig, Rig Loading on Vessel - Boat Design Forums

http://www.setsail.com/_storefiles/72.pdf

From the first link I can see they want me to buy a nice covered line and strip the cover off for the part that takes the load. Not a bad idea. I am doing it a bit backwards where I am taking a double braid and removing the core and replacing it with the good stuff. This link shows all kinds of good ideas for any one interested in marlinspike arts and the modern age.

Link 2 is a lot of chat about what I was looking for. I will no doubt not go down this road.

Link 3 is a good read by the Dashews. Very practical no nonsense approach to halyards from their experience on bigger boats.

Anyhow I kinda got the answer I was looking for. It was interesting to me that I did not get a few responses from the engineer types or those in the know about loads on halyards...it got me to thinking that perhaps this is not something you can just roll off the end of a loads calc sheet. Something like. A 200 sq. ft. Jib will generate xxx lbs. of pull at 15 kts. close hauled.

Maybe those do not exsist......:-)
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Old 16-12-2008, 14:58   #2
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Estimating the load on the clew seems to be easily available (Harken has a good calculator). I don't see calculators for the halyards. It probably depends as much on who is cranking down on the winch, as to how high the wind is blowing. If you boat originally was rigged with wire halyards, why not just use those as a good working load value?

Paul L
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Old 16-12-2008, 16:03   #3
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FYI I don't tink the Dashews are selling line anymore - looks like they stopped doing so in July.

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Old 17-12-2008, 08:28   #4
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Estimating the load on the clew seems to be easily available (Harken has a good calculator). I don't see calculators for the halyards. It probably depends as much on who is cranking down on the winch, as to how high the wind is blowing. If you boat originally was rigged with wire halyards, why not just use those as a good working load value?

Paul L

Paul thanks on that. I realize I can continue to use the "old" parameters of sizing halyards. I am wondering though just how much is by guess and by golly going on up there? With the new synthetic lines available, I am now faced with the task of trying to size a much smaller line (because it is strong enough and chafe resistant enough)
This is a perfect scenario of what we are faced with on these new materials. Just because a piece on line 1/8" is strong enough to do a job, we then have to adapt it so the hands and blocks and all the hardware can handle it.
Brion Toss has a great read on this, it is from 2004, and much has been learned since then. Brion is currently re-riging all his standing rigging on his 36' cutter with sythetics. His previous SS rig was only two years old.

Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter


I am guessing that if no one has been able to point me to loads on halyards, it is because it is too variable. I would like to guess that most of the sizing has come down thru the ages by giving it a good guess. The ropes never got small enough to break because they were too hard on the hands if they got too small. I am going to delve into making it too small and easy on the hands
I can live with that. It is just one more advancement or adventure into making of a good ship in 2008....:-)
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Old 17-12-2008, 09:10   #5
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The problem

The problem with the newer high strength low stretch halyards is that your average cruising sail is NOT low stretch/high strength. I have seen a fair number of sails ruined by folks over spending on gourmet line then cranking too hard on the halyards. The new "gourmet line" line is very, very strong so and has very little stretch so be careful. I run Yale Vizzion 3/8" on my on my 36 footer and I need to be careful compared to my older halyards.
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Old 17-12-2008, 10:02   #6
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To meet the equivalent strength of the original wire with the Dynex that you are using will be a pretty small line diameter. Why push it below that size? Even if the loads are typically less. You are going to add tails to it and you do still need to deal with potential chafe issues.

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Old 17-12-2008, 11:56   #7
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One can calculate the specific halyard load for a given sail under given conditions but the effort is hardly worth it. In practice, a simple, yet reasonable, approximation can be obtained by treating a sail as a tinsel structure, such as a tent, with point supports, only, at the tack, clew and head, each acting along a line through the mid-point of the opposing edge of the sail. With this, and an assumed loading, one can take moments about any corner from which one can develop and resolve the point load at each corner which can only act parallel to the plane of the sail at that point. (Wind loading = WL is equal to V2 (squared) *P/2*A; where V = wind velocity; P = the density of air, which varies with barometric pressure and A = the projected area of the sail.) In fact, however, with exception of a free flying sail, in heavy air one can fully release a roller furling jib or main halyard without the sail dropping, in which case there is no load on the halyards at all. (Accordingly, some must rig down-hauls on mains so they can get the sail down at all when it’s time to reef.)

Since the calculus for line sizing has already been done by both the manufacturers of line intended for marine use, as well as the major sail lofts, it makes no sense to go through the foregoing calculations for other than intellectual exercise. For example, see New England Ropes - Line Selector. The only issue I have with the newer "high-tec" lines is that I have found that the sizes spec'd may be sufficient from a strength and stretch view-point but can be difficult to handle from a size perspective. Our own halyards are 11mm T-900 but the stuff is so slick, if I had it to do over again I'd use a larger diameter, less costly, line.

FWIW...

s/v HyLyte
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Old 17-12-2008, 13:43   #8
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic View Post
The problem with the newer high strength low stretch halyards is that your average cruising sail is NOT low stretch/high strength. I have seen a fair number of sails ruined by folks over spending on gourmet line then cranking too hard on the halyards. The new "gourmet line" line is very, very strong so and has very little stretch so be careful. I run Yale Vizzion 3/8" on my on my 36 footer and I need to be careful compared to my older halyards.
Thanks to all who are responding...good stuff

Acoustic, you bring up exactly what I am dealing with. YOu cannot just add something without it effecting other things. I had not even considered the material in and construction of the sails!

We ran into this in Alaska where I run a 125' offshore trawler in the Bearing Sea. We use 50 ton haul in winches to bring the bag aboard. We switched from 1 3/8" cables to 1 1/8" Dux. We were very concerned about chaff (did not happen) and strength (never broke)...but we did not think about the winch it was attached to. Turns out after a Jan/Feb season, the shock loads from hauling 150 ton bags in big seas (we get some serious shocks as the bag and the boat get out of sync in big seas, when it goes slack then comes tight like a piano string)....the darn winch, which was designed for wire (wire will crush, and stretch a bit on the shocks)...the drums started cracking. The line we were so worried about was fine, but the thing we attached it to was taking a beating.....:-)

I am going to continue to explore small line for the load, and bigger line for the hauling or tail part.

By the way Acoustic, you website is very good stuff. I am currently bedding all my decks equipment after I have radius and epoxied every stinking hole...:-)
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Old 22-12-2008, 07:30   #9
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FYI

I found a halyard load chart in the back of Brion Toss's book "Riggers Apprentice" It is from Lewmar. I have searched through the Lewmar site and cannot find it anywhere.

In a nutshell it looks like between a 32' and 40' you get 2,000lbs. to 3,000 lbs of load. I will use the higher end of this for a 34' trimaran.

http://www.hampidjan.is/media/pdf/Dy...april_2006.pdf

Looks like 4mm or 5mm at the most will be plenty. I will take some kind of a double braid and pull the core out and run this up inside. I like it...:-)

S/V Hylyte This is what I am trying to avoid. One: a big pile of expensive line that never get's a load put on it, sitting on your deck after you hoist a sail. Two: Dealing with the slick line that many of the good stuff is made out of. 3: save some bucks by using a "better for human hands" line for the tail.
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Old 22-12-2008, 07:54   #10
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Quote:
Looks like 4mm or 5mm at the most will be plenty. I will take some kind of a double braid and pull the core out and run this up inside. I like it...:-)
From a load standpoint I would agree. The loads are not that significant compared to a Jib clew. Your track is carrying a major portion of the load. You still have chafe at the mast head and UV to deal with. These have nothing to do with load but given a just little stretch the chafe issue can be the more serious worry. The last half foot of halyard takes a lot of abuse.
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Old 22-12-2008, 07:59   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic View Post
The problem with the newer high strength low stretch halyards is that your average cruising sail is NOT low stretch/high strength. I have seen a fair number of sails ruined by folks over spending on gourmet line then cranking too hard on the halyards. The new "gourmet line" line is very, very strong so and has very little stretch so be careful. I run Yale Vizzion 3/8" on my on my 36 footer and I need to be careful compared to my older halyards.
Never heard of this being a problem with all-wire halyards -- why is it a problem with low-stretch synthetics??

Cheers,
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Old 22-12-2008, 08:01   #12
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From a load standpoint I would agree. The loads are not that significant compared to a Jib clew. Your track is carrying a major portion of the load. You still have chafe at the mast head and UV to deal with. These have nothing to do with load but given a just little stretch the chafe issue can be the more serious worry. The last half foot of halyard takes a lot of abuse.
Yes to pull this off I need to do regular inspections, know that my mast sheeves are smooth and fair. Also this stuff is so easy to throw anothier eye splice in when and if I do see any wear.

So from you well though out cautions.....does it not seem like a rope company's recomendations take in all those factor's, then double the size to compensate for the "less than dilligent" sailors?

How amny other things are we burdened with that have a 2x or 4x fudge factor in them? Just thinking out loud......
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Old 22-12-2008, 11:57   #13
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I've been through this thread with some interest. In a way, the discussion is an allegory for a lot of the tradeoffs on boats as well as other aspects of life. It seems that the latest/greatest materials may have some advantage but the unintended side effects could outweigh them. Stretch...this seems kind of important, not too much not too little. And what about human comfort? I'm not sure that I want to be hauling on a 3 mm slick halyard when I'm trying to raise a sail. So maybe the dollar cost and other aspects outweigh the weight and space savings on some of the more modern materials applications.
I'm far from a luddite but I do occasionally wonder if we don't get into a gottahave mode when new things come out.
I'll be replacing a spinnaker halyard and now I think I'll just go with a good 3/8 polyester. Easy to use and not too expensive, for a boat part!
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Old 22-12-2008, 13:06   #14
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Yes to pull this off I need to do regular inspections, know that my mast sheeves are smooth and fair. Also this stuff is so easy to throw anothier eye splice in when and if I do see any wear....
Have you tried splicing used Dynex? Is it much harder than splicing new line, like a lot of other ropes?

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Old 22-12-2008, 16:34   #15
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Have you tried splicing used Dynex? Is it much harder than splicing new line, like a lot of other ropes?

Paul L
Paul, take a look at: Post #41

It shows a 2 year old line I had to use for something else, so rather than just cut it, I un-spliced it and then cut it and re-spliced it. I was looking for any wear, discoloration, fuzzy stuff...anything that would indicate age. It was just another splice, I could not tell the difference.

That was Dux which is Dynex that has been heated and stretched to give it what we need for standing rigging. The piece I show was a running back-stay.

Dynex at 3 or 4mm is pretty simple to splice. Get a chunk and try it. Hollow 12 braid is like the ski ropes I used to use...:-)

Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?
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