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Old 26-06-2015, 17:16   #16
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Wink Re: Baby stay really necessary?

I am not a rigger but the answer is that it depends on your mast. Many racing masts would not survive without a baby stay. A serious 30 to 70ft cruising boat should never be designed to have a baby stay as it is a unnecessary inconvenience on a cruising boat. And that is the crux of the matter. The Bene's, as with most mass produced boats, are not designed for serious ocean cruising. This is not a Bene bash. I know that many thousands have successfully crossed oceans in most conditions but they are primarily designed to perform well a whilst still providing very well appointed accommodation. They also suffer from being built to a budget. It is cheaper to have a lighter section mast with a baby stay to help keep it up than to have a heavier section that would make a baby stay unnecessary. As with all else on a yacht, it is a compromise and in my opinion in this case the compromise has been for performance and economy over strength and user friendliness. In this particular vessel that was obviously the decision made.
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Old 26-06-2015, 17:37   #17
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper4730 View Post
Hey y'all just a quick question regarding our rig. We have an '04 50' Bene with a baby stay that kinda makes the foredeck cluttered and not to user friendly. A broker once told me that unless you are doing some serious heavy weather sailing it is not really needed. Thoughts? We would love to remove it but don't want to over stress the rest of the rig. We are not extreme and don't sail in anything over twenty knots and reef early and often. Anyway just trying to get a little insight into the possibility of taking it off and storing it below.

Thanks
Will
Please take a few moments to read this thread: A Paean to my Staysail that was started by Dockhead.
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Old 26-06-2015, 18:09   #18
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

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Originally Posted by Fine Tolerance View Post
I am not a rigger but the answer is that it depends on your mast. Many racing masts would not survive without a baby stay. A serious 30 to 70ft cruising boat should never be designed to have a baby stay as it is a unnecessary inconvenience on a cruising boat. And that is the crux of the matter. The Bene's, as with most mass produced boats, are not designed for serious ocean cruising. This is not a Bene bash. I know that many thousands have successfully crossed oceans in most conditions but they are primarily designed to perform well a whilst still providing very well appointed accommodation. They also suffer from being built to a budget. It is cheaper to have a lighter section mast with a baby stay to help keep it up than to have a heavier section that would make a baby stay unnecessary. As with all else on a yacht, it is a compromise and in my opinion in this case the compromise has been for performance and economy over strength and user friendliness. In this particular vessel that was obviously the decision made.
Such no sense sorry, the mast is a heavy Wall section sparcraft, just to point that the spreaders tips sport a masive link conector from uppers to the D2 , heavier sections are not related to babystays or not, probably Beneteau make some shortcuts in the hull or whatever but not in the rig, the mast is wonderfull , proper suported and with generous sizes in the uppers and lowers , they fit a babystay because the angle in the sweep back spreaders is not enough to keep the rig stable in the midle section without the babystay in regular weather, its a sparcraft not a zSpar my friend...
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Old 26-06-2015, 20:36   #19
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

Such no sense sorry, the mast is a heavy Wall section sparcraft, just to point that the spreaders tips sport a masive link conector from uppers to the D2 , heavier sections are not related to babystays or not, probably Beneteau make some shortcuts in the hull or whatever but not in the rig, the mast is wonderfull , proper suported and with generous sizes in the uppers and lowers , they fit a babystay because the angle in the sweep back spreaders is not enough to keep the rig stable in the midle section without the babystay in regular weather, its a sparcraft not a zSpar my friend.

Was there only one choice in rigs with 50' Beneteau's? I don't profess to know the design intimately and this boat specifically but I have seen very strong charter rigs, inmast furling and then others that appear to be lighter on Beneteau's.

Taking that you know the boats rig what you say is sensible and with your knowledge you may be able to answer the OP's original question. Can he do away with the baby stay in lighter weather or is the mast absolutely dependant on the baby stay to stay put?

Off the OP's topic I know but here's a question from me. What do you think the reasoning behind Beneteau making a boat for cruising with a rig that needs a baby stay to stay up when it could have been just as easily designed to go without one? or is it not designed for serious cruising and more for the sailing that the OP mentions?
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Old 26-06-2015, 20:46   #20
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

There is nothing about a baby stay that makes it incompatible with serious cruising. Long passages do not typically need lots of tacks. So it is no big inconvenience to roll up and roll out the foresail to avoid problems with the baby stay. In fact, this is a sensible thing to do as it avoids lots of other things that can cause the crew to have to go forward such as clearing a lazy sheet hung on a hatch or shroud. The few seconds lost rolling up and back out are not that important on a long passage.

Faced with dozens of short tacks back and forth to get up a channel most "serious" cruisers turn on the iron genny. They probably need to charge the batteries anyway. Bene has probably thought all this through and arrived at a rig that makes most cruisers happy. I did not say all but most. Else they would not sell more cruising boats than any other builder.
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Old 26-06-2015, 21:58   #21
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

There is nothing about a baby stay that makes it incompatible with serious cruising. Long passages do not typically need lots of tacks. So it is no big inconvenience to roll up and roll out the foresail to avoid problems with the baby stay. In fact, this is a sensible thing to do as it avoids lots of other things that can cause the crew to have to go forward such as clearing a lazy sheet hung on a hatch or shroud. The few seconds lost rolling up and back out are not that important on a long passage.

Faced with dozens of short tacks back and forth to get up a channel most "serious" cruisers turn on the iron genny. They probably need to charge the batteries anyway. Bene has probably thought all this through and arrived at a rig that makes most cruisers happy. I did not say all but most. Else they would not sell more cruising boats than any other builder.


I think we have some confusion between a baby stay and an inner forestay here.

The OP posted the question whether he could take away the baby stay in light weather, not an inner forestay which your posting makes perfect sense for.
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Old 26-06-2015, 22:17   #22
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Tolerance View Post
Such no sense sorry, the mast is a heavy Wall section sparcraft, just to point that the spreaders tips sport a masive link conector from uppers to the D2 , heavier sections are not related to babystays or not, probably Beneteau make some shortcuts in the hull or whatever but not in the rig, the mast is wonderfull , proper suported and with generous sizes in the uppers and lowers , they fit a babystay because the angle in the sweep back spreaders is not enough to keep the rig stable in the midle section without the babystay in regular weather, its a sparcraft not a zSpar my friend.

Was there only one choice in rigs with 50' Beneteau's? I don't profess to know the design intimately and this boat specifically but I have seen very strong charter rigs, inmast furling and then others that appear to be lighter on Beneteau's.

Taking that you know the boats rig what you say is sensible and with your knowledge you may be able to answer the OP's original question. Can he do away with the baby stay in lighter weather or is the mast absolutely dependant on the baby stay to stay put?

Off the OP's topic I know but here's a question from me. What do you think the reasoning behind Beneteau making a boat for cruising with a rig that needs a baby stay to stay up when it could have been just as easily designed to go without one? or is it not designed for serious cruising and more for the sailing that the OP mentions?

The 50 come with a sparcraft doublé spreader rig , i see some old Oceanis 50 with some short of Zdifusion rigs changed today as ZSpar Gold Label, the Zspar is a piece of crap in my opinión , almost all the new beneteaus come with Zspar or Sparcraft,, Jeaneau the same as beneteau in mast choices, Zspar or Sparcraft ,,,

Answer to your question , if is me, i leave it like that, if you take a look at the bene 50 the babystay is really small and with a close angle vertical to the mast, is not really a isue unless you fly a huge genoa , 130 150 and tack often, but even with that the jib sheets pass fairly easy , is a must if the op fit in the stay those funy aluminium pipes, even more easy for the ropes to slide trough the pipe.

He can take it out in light weather , the mast is not going to fall off for that reason, but is designed to have a babystay , is in fact a good rig with the babystay, having see day by day new rigs and new boats, is by far one sturdy rig in a production boat, just a example, is scary in some new boats to grab a upper shroud and shake the whole rig with minimun effort, back and forth,,, not in the 50, babystays is in fact a feature in many offshore cruising rigs , but oh well today with those Deep angle sweep back spreaders many dont need it anymore, even some builders like Pogo dont need a backstay ... prebend and mast rake is reached by tensioning the Uppers and forestay tensión to.

And yes , agree with you , some new stuff is scary as hell....
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Old 28-06-2015, 15:57   #23
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

In the event of loss of the rig, you could have issues with the insurance company if the stay was not connected.
Best option would be to look at what causes the difficulties in tacking - where things get hung-up and then see what can be done.
Typical is the bowlines on the genoa - change to soft eyes.
If you do not fly a sail from the stay (as in a cutter) then you can rig a PVC tube to act as a roller (I have added this on both my Fwd lowers and Cap shrouds).
If it is just on the bottle screws, you can create a soft cover.
Alternatively, part-roll the genoa as you tack. Back the genoa, or release it earl, whichever works.
There are normally ways to make life easier and they end-up saving on the wear and tear, so reduce the maintenance costs.
Experiment.
Roger
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Old 28-06-2015, 21:17   #24
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

I have a 473 and I am splitting the baby stay and adding two deck fittings. Then running the separate wires to the gunnel at an appropriate location. That way I retain the intent of the stay but get the deck space back. There are times when I would like my dinghy on deck and its 13 feet long.
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Old 28-06-2015, 22:12   #25
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

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I have a 473 and I am splitting the baby stay and adding two deck fittings. Then running the separate wires to the gunnel at an appropriate location. That way I retain the intent of the stay but get the deck space back. There are times when I would like my dinghy on deck and its 13 feet long.

Are you serious??
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Old 29-06-2015, 01:34   #26
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

yeah seriously its 13 feet long ok maybe 13.5
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Old 29-06-2015, 09:46   #27
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

Then is not anymore a babystay , more likely a couple of lowers with a wide angle attached to the gunels and i doubt the gunels are thick enough to resist the loads without a chainplate ... kind of try to attach a upper or lower to a pad eye screwed to the gunel instead of a chainplate... also i dont know if the jib tracks are Deep inboard in the deck or close to the gunels or in top of the cap rail, but be sure dont interfere with the jib sheets... good luck..
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:02   #28
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

For what it's worth I called and spoke to the rig designer for the Beneteau 381 which uses the same babysta. It is not removable, and taking it off is highly discouraged. Not just for mast pump, but also structural support even in <10kn. His feeling was that if I took it off I should just go ahead and call the insurance company about needing a new mast.

Apparently a number of owners have tried it, and a lot of new rigs have been the result. Of course if the insurance company finds out why it fell you will be paying out of pocket.
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:20   #29
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Re: Baby stay really necessary?

Any boat (many of them 1980's C&Cs) that I have sailed with a baby stay was a mast head rig. The baby stay was used for mast bend. None of them had a halyard that could be used for a staysail.
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