Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-05-2016, 02:10   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Boat: Hunter 40 Legend
Posts: 169
B&R rig with inner forestay

Hi all,
I have a 1986 Hunter 40 Legend with the B&R rig and WITH a backstay.

Question… if I were to fit an inner forestay (removable) at the upper spreaders should I also fit running backstays? If so where should they be anchored?
__________________

__________________
Regards Craig
40 South is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 05:32   #2
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

I'm curious to hear other Hunter owner's responses. But why wouldn't you attach the runners in the standard position, opposing the pull of the new stay? Would they pose the possible danger of inverting the spar there?
__________________

__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 05:41   #3
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

I wonder, as I often do with cutters, if the intermediates are speced to handle the side loads or forward loads. Maybe they are, at least most cutters have comparitively light shrouds at the cutter stay and they hang in there ok...

Why not stick a solent stay just under the forestay, no structural issues then, and arguably more versitile?
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 06:36   #4
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,050
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

You have to wonder why it's not done, or at least I do.
Does add cost of course
Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?

Silly question, is there room for one?
__________________
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 07:00   #5
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?
Most of the time you would be right, except in 50+ knots with the staysail alone is pushing her over till the cabin windows are underwater, then the loads on the staysail are far higher than the genoa, due to the reduced leverage its working on.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 07:15   #6
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 South View Post
Hi all,
I have a 1986 Hunter 40 Legend with the B&R rig and WITH a backstay.

Question… if I were to fit an inner forestay (removable) at the upper spreaders should I also fit running backstays? If so where should they be anchored?
I'd consult an actual rigger before I attached ANY serious loads at the spreaders... ESPECIALLY if you've got "through the mast" spreader bars... i.e. giant oval holes cut into your mast side walls... Actually, I'm having a hard time thinking of a "better location" to place a dynamic unopposed load to try and snap the stick...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I'm curious to hear other Hunter owner's responses. But why wouldn't you attach the runners in the standard position, opposing the pull of the new stay? Would they pose the possible danger of inverting the spar there?
Agreed up to the last sentence where massive confusion comes in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
I wonder, as I often do with cutters, if the intermediates are speced to handle the side loads or forward loads. Maybe they are, at least most cutters have comparitively light shrouds at the cutter stay and they hang in there ok...

Why not stick a solent stay just under the forestay, no structural issues then, and arguably more versitile?
EXACTLY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
You have to wonder why it's not done, or at least I do.
Does add cost of course
Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?

Silly question, is there room for one?
Minor, but not insignificant... Do some good old fashioned "Statics 201" on your rig, and I think your eyes will widen a smidge...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 08:03   #7
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,050
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Most of the time you would be right, except in 50+ knots with the staysail alone is pushing her over till the cabin windows are underwater, then the loads on the staysail are far higher than the genoa, due to the reduced leverage its working on.
Being that it is attached at the half way point up the mast, roughly, I thought due to leverage the loads would be less, as in less lever length?

I know this is an art, and a science, like a bridge maybe? But I'm sure it can be accomplished, just I've never seen a Hunter with a staysail, and even as an extremely inexperienced sailor, I have to say when beating into the wind and or high wind conditions, I like having one.
__________________
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 08:08   #8
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,050
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

I suck at Math, there is a reason I'm no Engineer, I wouldn't even try to calculate the loads on my rig, and even if you did it for me, I'd be like a pig looking at a wrist watch
__________________
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 08:12   #9
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

HA!

Ya got me... Funny and brilliantly smart ain't too bad to fall back on...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 08:39   #10
Registered User
 
JoelVannordel's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Boat: Hunter 42 1995
Posts: 11
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Well my previous boat a Hunter 37C was a cutter. We always used the running back stays, if you don't I would think that your rig is at risk. With the stay sail up and loaded you are putting some real strain at the attachment point for the forestay. While the 37C was not a B&R rig, still I would think the forces are point loaded at the stay attachment point. By the way the 37C inner stay sail was self tending and was the way we usually sailed, so tacking was easy, because the inner stay sail took care of itself.
__________________
Fair Winds

Joel
JoelVannordel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 10:15   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Annisquam, MA
Boat: Hunter 380 - 2000 - 38'
Posts: 14
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

I have a 2000 Hunter 380 that I sailed in the 2015 Marion to Bermuda Race. I really wanted an inner forestay and consulted a rigger. He consulted with both Hunter and Selden and both said "No". Fitted with running backstays the mast might be OK, but was not recommended. The real problem was anchoring to the deck. They said you would have to go all the way to the stem with a line connected from the back of the deck where the inner stay was anchored. That would put a wire right through my water tank under the v-berth. It became a such a huge task the rigger just said no.
__________________
Bacchanal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 10:28   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,172
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Hm... We usta do that. Twin head stays side by each. Simple. Cost effective and easy to handle. I don't see how a "Solent stay" could serve anyone better - except maybe the riggers.

Just bring 'er on the tack that gets the idle stay to weather, go do your hanking, drop the working sail, hoist the "new" sail, tidy up, come back to the cockpit and bring her on the tack required for her course.

We could argue about the shifting CE, but since it's really the moment arm we are concerned about, for the twin head stay setup you just have to anticipate than when determining the size of your storm jib.

TrentePieds
__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 12:01   #13
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

I'm not a Hunter expert, but why would you have a B&R rig and a backstay? Isn't the whole point of the B&R rig to sweep the spreaders back far enough that you don't need a backstay? Has somebody added one?
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 13:13   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Regarding staysail loads, if the staysail is attached half way up the mast and is heeling the boat, say for example 30 degrees, then the heeling load at the staysail attachment is twice that of the heeling load on the jibstay attached at the masthead to achieve the same 30 degrees heel.

Swept spreader rigs can be designed to take both heeling (transverse) loads and fore/aft loads. Or not. If designed to take both loads the shrouds will be quite a bit stronger.

You can do an analysis of the rig to determine if the intermediates are up to this load without the help of runners. But frankly, if the rig wasn't designed for a cutter stay, why would they be?

The alternative is to just fit runners, which fully addresses the issue, no doubts or maybes, and gives you a stronger rig. This is the best solution.
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 13:21   #15
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: B&R rig with inner forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Regarding staysail loads, if the staysail is attached half way up the mast and is heeling the boat, say for example 30 degrees, then the heeling load at the staysail attachment is twice that of the heeling load on the jibstay attached at the masthead to achieve the same 30 degrees heel.

Swept spreader rigs can be designed to take both heeling (transverse) loads and fore/aft loads. Or not. If designed to take both loads the shrouds will be quite a bit stronger.

You can do an analysis of the rig to determine if the intermediates are up to this load without the help of runners. But frankly, if the rig wasn't designed for a cutter stay, why would they be?

The alternative is to just fit runners, which fully addresses the issue, no doubts or maybes, and gives you a stronger rig. This is the best solution.
Very well described, Pauls.
__________________

__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adjustable Inner Forestay fastforward Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 4 27-06-2010 02:11
How to Make the Inner Forestay Tight boat_alexandra Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 12 24-12-2009 23:44
Inner Forestay lever CAELESTIS Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 1 16-10-2009 20:54
Storm Sail for Cat without Inner Forestay STEREOTYPE Multihull Sailboats 10 04-08-2009 18:09
Storing an inner forestay Charlie Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 9 18-06-2008 13:07



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.