B&R rig with inner forestay

[40 South]

Hi all,
I have a 1986 Hunter 40 Legend with the B&R rig and WITH a backstay.

Question… if I were to fit an inner forestay (removable) at the upper spreaders should I also fit running backstays? If so where should they be anchored?

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'm curious to hear other Hunter owner's responses. But why wouldn't you attach the runners in the standard position, opposing the pull of the new stay? Would they pose the possible danger of inverting the spar there?

[Snowpetrel]

I wonder, as I often do with cutters, if the intermediates are speced to handle the side loads or forward loads. Maybe they are, at least most cutters have comparitively light shrouds at the cutter stay and they hang in there ok...

Why not stick a solent stay just under the forestay, no structural issues then, and arguably more versitile?

[a64pilot]

You have to wonder why it's not done, or at least I do.
Does add cost of course
Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?

Silly question, is there room for one?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?

Most of the time you would be right, except in 50+ knots with the staysail alone is pushing her over till the cabin windows are underwater, then the loads on the staysail are far higher than the genoa, due to the reduced leverage its working on.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by 40 South

Hi all,
I have a 1986 Hunter 40 Legend with the B&R rig and WITH a backstay.

Question… if I were to fit an inner forestay (removable) at the upper spreaders should I also fit running backstays? If so where should they be anchored?

I'd consult an actual rigger before I attached ANY serious loads at the spreaders... ESPECIALLY if you've got "through the mast" spreader bars... i.e. giant oval holes cut into your mast side walls... Actually, I'm having a hard time thinking of a "better location" to place a dynamic unopposed load to try and snap the stick...

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I'm curious to hear other Hunter owner's responses. But why wouldn't you attach the runners in the standard position, opposing the pull of the new stay? Would they pose the possible danger of inverting the spar there?

Agreed up to the last sentence where massive confusion comes in!

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I wonder, as I often do with cutters, if the intermediates are speced to handle the side loads or forward loads. Maybe they are, at least most cutters have comparitively light shrouds at the cutter stay and they hang in there ok...

Why not stick a solent stay just under the forestay, no structural issues then, and arguably more versitile?

EXACTLY!

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You have to wonder why it's not done, or at least I do.
Does add cost of course
Compared to my Genoa, I think the loads imparted to the mast by my staysail to be minor?

Silly question, is there room for one?

Minor, but not insignificant... Do some good old fashioned "Statics 201" on your rig, and I think your eyes will widen a smidge...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Most of the time you would be right, except in 50+ knots with the staysail alone is pushing her over till the cabin windows are underwater, then the loads on the staysail are far higher than the genoa, due to the reduced leverage its working on.

Being that it is attached at the half way point up the mast, roughly, I thought due to leverage the loads would be less, as in less lever length?

I know this is an art, and a science, like a bridge maybe? But I'm sure it can be accomplished, just I've never seen a Hunter with a staysail, and even as an extremely inexperienced sailor, I have to say when beating into the wind and or high wind conditions, I like having one.

[a64pilot]

I suck at Math, there is a reason I'm no Engineer, I wouldn't even try to calculate the loads on my rig, and even if you did it for me, I'd be like a pig looking at a wrist watch

[HappyMdRSailor]

HA!

Ya got me... Funny and brilliantly smart ain't too bad to fall back on...

[JoelVannordel]

Well my previous boat a Hunter 37C was a cutter. We always used the running back stays, if you don't I would think that your rig is at risk. With the stay sail up and loaded you are putting some real strain at the attachment point for the forestay. While the 37C was not a B&R rig, still I would think the forces are point loaded at the stay attachment point. By the way the 37C inner stay sail was self tending and was the way we usually sailed, so tacking was easy, because the inner stay sail took care of itself.

[Bacchanal]

I have a 2000 Hunter 380 that I sailed in the 2015 Marion to Bermuda Race. I really wanted an inner forestay and consulted a rigger. He consulted with both Hunter and Selden and both said "No". Fitted with running backstays the mast might be OK, but was not recommended. The real problem was anchoring to the deck. They said you would have to go all the way to the stem with a line connected from the back of the deck where the inner stay was anchored. That would put a wire right through my water tank under the v-berth. It became a such a huge task the rigger just said no.

[TrentePieds]

Hm... We usta do that. Twin head stays side by each. Simple. Cost effective and easy to handle. I don't see how a "Solent stay" could serve anyone better - except maybe the riggers.

Just bring 'er on the tack that gets the idle stay to weather, go do your hanking, drop the working sail, hoist the "new" sail, tidy up, come back to the cockpit and bring her on the tack required for her course.

We could argue about the shifting CE, but since it's really the moment arm we are concerned about, for the twin head stay setup you just have to anticipate than when determining the size of your storm jib.

TrentePieds

[cwyckham]

I'm not a Hunter expert, but why would you have a B&R rig and a backstay? Isn't the whole point of the B&R rig to sweep the spreaders back far enough that you don't need a backstay? Has somebody added one?

[Pauls]

Regarding staysail loads, if the staysail is attached half way up the mast and is heeling the boat, say for example 30 degrees, then the heeling load at the staysail attachment is twice that of the heeling load on the jibstay attached at the masthead to achieve the same 30 degrees heel.

Swept spreader rigs can be designed to take both heeling (transverse) loads and fore/aft loads. Or not. If designed to take both loads the shrouds will be quite a bit stronger.

You can do an analysis of the rig to determine if the intermediates are up to this load without the help of runners. But frankly, if the rig wasn't designed for a cutter stay, why would they be?

The alternative is to just fit runners, which fully addresses the issue, no doubts or maybes, and gives you a stronger rig. This is the best solution.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Regarding staysail loads, if the staysail is attached half way up the mast and is heeling the boat, say for example 30 degrees, then the heeling load at the staysail attachment is twice that of the heeling load on the jibstay attached at the masthead to achieve the same 30 degrees heel.

Swept spreader rigs can be designed to take both heeling (transverse) loads and fore/aft loads. Or not. If designed to take both loads the shrouds will be quite a bit stronger.

You can do an analysis of the rig to determine if the intermediates are up to this load without the help of runners. But frankly, if the rig wasn't designed for a cutter stay, why would they be?

The alternative is to just fit runners, which fully addresses the issue, no doubts or maybes, and gives you a stronger rig. This is the best solution.

Very well described, Pauls.