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toddedger · 18-12-2013, 16:41

I'm doing something similar with my "mule" heavy weather sail. I can carry my genny to 20 knots. Above twenty knots I will unfurl my mule on a Facnor continuous line fuller with a 9mm torque rope sewn in the luff. The upper swivel will attach to a wichard MX shackle on a 2:1 dyneema halyard. The halyard comes out of the mast exit box and goes down to the MX shackle and then back to a T-ball fitting on the mast. So my T-ball fitting will only take half the total load. I will be able to un-tack the furler and move it back by the mast with the sail still on it if I want to get it out of the way.

**Jim Cate** · 18-12-2013, 19:02

Todd, that sounds like an interesting solution. I can't help wondering if you can get adequate luff tension and support to keep good sail shape when going to windward in a strong blow? Doesn't take much sag to ruin the nice flat sail shape the sailmaker designed into the sail! I have enough problem with this on a wire stay with a rigging screw+Highfield lever on my Solent rigged boat. I'm using a conventional Facnor furler and can move the whole mess back out of the way, but it is a bitch to reconnect the lot if there is much wind or boat motion, due to the mass of furler and sail.

So, is this rig something proven or just in the planning stage? And what size boat is it going on?

Cheers,

Jim

toddedger · 18-12-2013, 19:45

Well my boat is a Morgan 27 and it's not proven yet, but I now have 90% of the hardware. I don't think I will have a problem with the tension. thats why they recommend a 2:1 halyard. I can always slack my backstay first, then take up on the halyard before re-tightening the backstay. I can see where the mass could be a problem to move around. The plan is to move it up forward long before all hell breaks loose. For me the furler is small and the sail is small. My mule has about a 140% overlap, but it only goes half way up the forestay. It's a great sail for offshore, it has a really nice balance with the center of effort low and farther aft than a small jib. I fly it at 20 knots and around 35 the main just comes down. The boat still plows to windward nicely till upper 40's to lower 50's.

robert sailor · 19-12-2013, 02:03

Not taking a shot at you but have you ever sailed to windward in upper 40's or low 50's? Quite frankly when it gets over 35 I'm no longer sailing to windward.

Sailmonkey · 19-12-2013, 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Not taking a shot at you but have you ever sailed to windward in upper 40's or low 50's? Quite frankly when it gets over 35 I'm no longer sailing to windward.

I was thinking the same thing..,,,,my sailing to weather cutoff is roughly 25-35 depending on sea state.

toddedger · 19-12-2013, 05:10

Yes Robert, max reading was 57, but that was also a condition with a very short fetch. I think the wave action will stop most of us before the wind speed. I'm just offering my strategy as an alternative way for OP to spread the load on his mast.

toddedger · 19-12-2013, 09:42

I was thinking about what Jim said to me earlier and I would like to point out that it is impossible to limit all forestay sag. Thats why your sailmaker has to input anticipated sag into his softwar when he designs your sail. If your having trouble with sail shape on your solent stay because of to much sag, than maybe you should have the luff curve re-cut for that amount of sag. The goal is to be safe an practical when the wind picks up. Trading some sag for ease and safety seams like a win for me.

**Jim Cate** · 19-12-2013, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddedger

I was thinking about what Jim said to me earlier and I would like to point out that it is impossible to limit all forestay sag. Thats why your sailmaker has to input anticipated sag into his softwar when he designs your sail. If your having trouble with sail shape on your solent stay because of to much sag, than maybe you should have the luff curve re-cut for that amount of sag. The goal is to be safe an practical when the wind picks up. Trading some sag for ease and safety seams like a win for me.

I think that it might be hard to have reproducible tension on the soft stay, and thus harder to predict the optimum luff shape for its sail. Just speculating here, BTW!

Interestingly, Todd, I fairly recently did have the luff recut on our Solent jib, and it did help some with keeping the draft from migrating aft too far. I suspect that a new Solent jib is in our future, though...

And that is why I'm interested in your outcome with the soft stay and furler. If that turns out to be viable on a boat our size I would be very tempted to scrap the current furling system and go to one that was easier to get out of the way when using the genoa. I have my doubts that it would work, but would be delighted to find that I am wrong!

So, please keep us advised as to your progress with the project.

Cheers,

Jim

**estarzinger** · 19-12-2013, 12:20

^^

Jim you probably know that some of the vendee boats did/do make this sort of system work, except they all (that I know of) have 3:1 tackles at the tack back to cockpit winches to grind on the luff tension. The hoist and pull on initial tension with the 2:1 halyard, and then grind on the tack for the last bit of tension.

**Jim Cate** · 19-12-2013, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^

Jim you probably know that some of the vendee boats did/do make this sort of system work, except they all (that I know of) have 3:1 tackles at the tack back to cockpit winches to grind on the luff tension. The hoist and pull on initial tension with the 2:1 halyard, and then grind on the tack for the last bit of tension.

Thanks for that , Evans. I had heard about that system, but hadn't really considered it seriously. Hmmm... 3:1 and hooked to a BIG winch... I reckon that one could really get into trouble with that! Lets see, my own primaries give some 3200lbs tension (according to Barient), times 3... why, that's nearly 5 tonnes load I could generate. Should keep a luff straight OK on my 220 sq ft sail!

Have to give that some thought.

Cheers,

Jim

CAELESTIS · 19-12-2013, 16:52

I installed a removable solent stay a few years ago after reading a multitude of threads on this forum. You have already been giving a lot of good advice. Here are some additional thoughts:

If you think you want a dynex dux stay, you will need soft shackles as well. Do you want something that can chafe thru in 40+ when you need it the most? Bronze hanks will go thru that line in a day or so.

What about your under deck fitting? My boat had a factory installed mast tang and bulkhead fitting, although it was never commissioned with the stay or deck attachment. I used the Wichard adjuster and padeyes for the stay, and a Wichard padeye with -22 rod to the bulkhead fitting below deck. I added 1/2in G10 with epoxy and 3 1/2in bolts thru the deck . I used 3/8 wire for the stay. Rigging Only - Wichard 5/8 pin BACKSTAY ADJUSTER WITH RATCHET, 19 7/8" to 29 3/4" length

Now, have you tried to go to weather in 40-50? I have, and it is almost impossible to make headway against the resulting sea state. The waves will knock you back. You will be tacking forever.

Delmarrey, that was I who sold you the forestay lever, glad to see you made fine use of it!

sy_gilana · 19-12-2013, 17:55

When you need to use that, whatever sail you put on it is more than likely going to flog, a lot. If it's intended use is for heavy weather, your sail trim will not be ideal, as you will have other priorities. Our storm jib wore right through the top three piston hanks and we scrapped the next two, thanks to 70 knots and being hard on the wind with a lee shore. For this reason I would not use a "soft" stay, I would use wire, but thats just me..

delmarrey · 19-12-2013, 18:35

Yeah, post #5

Hi CAELESTIS,

Yep, finally getting some use out of it after sitting on the shelf for 3 years. The boat's in SF now. Had to custom make the top fitting to fit 5/16" wire.
And ditto on beefing up the deck fitting from below.