Assymeterical geneker or code zero?

[dMAC]

Thinking about getting either a code zero or asymmetrical geneker for my Jeanneau 53 for light wind days. thoughts? What is the difference in performance given, say 6-8 knots of wind on a reach? Can you leave the code zero semi-permanently rigged up? Even in stronger winds (furled up of course)?

[TheThunderbird]

[QUOTE=dMAC;1875252]Thinking about getting either a code zero or asymmetrical geneker for my Jeanneau 53 for light wind days. thoughts? What is the difference in performance given, say 6-8 knots of wind on a reach? Can you leave the code zero semi-permanently rigged up? Even in stronger winds (furled up of cour

Both go on a curling eat of their own.

Gennaker is in nylon, reach and leeward (80-135 degrees)

Code0 is inherently lighter (max F3-4 apparent wind), dacron or exotic fibers+taffeta', need bowsprit.
Upwind 60° till 150° you go faster than w Glenn, in light winds

[TheThunderbird]

[QUOTE=dMAC;1875252]Thinking about getting either a code zero or asymmetrical geneker for my Jeanneau 53 for light wind days. thoughts? What is the difference in performance given, say 6-8 knots of wind on a reach? Can you leave the code zero semi-permanently rigged up? Even in stronger winds

Both go on a furling eqt of their own.

Gennaker is in nylon, reaching and leeward (80-135 degrees) is ok

Code0 is inherently lighter (max F3-4 apparent wind), dacron or exotic fibers+taffeta', need bowsprit.
Upwind 60° till 150° you go faster than w Genn, in light winds.

Beyond that force, you break it and put on a Genn :-)

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by dMAC

Thinking about getting either a code zero or asymmetrical geneker for my Jeanneau 53 for light wind days. thoughts? What is the difference in performance given, say 6-8 knots of wind on a reach? Can you leave the code zero semi-permanently rigged up? Even in stronger winds (furled up of course)?

We have found the Asymmetrical to be faster reaching almost up to the point when you can't hold it anymore. This is mainly because it is much bigger in area than the CZ, so in 6-8 knots wind it is more powerful. We would be doing approx 6-7 knots with the Asy and about 5-6 knots with the CZ. Once the breeze increases or goes forward the CZ is quicker.
It is risky leaving CZ permanently rigged up as its hard to get the furl tight enough, the upper middle can unfurl and pull the top and bottom tight.

[GrahamHO]

I use a Selden top down furler for a gennaker on a smaller yacht. I'm sure they have sizes for you. There are other brands similar. Lots of videos online. They are very easy to use. If you want to tack or gybe, you wind it in on its continuous line change direction and pull it out the other way. It can be left up when rolled away though obviously in fresh conditions it should be lowered which is easy.

A code zero requires much more luff tension with a double purchase recommended. A CZ has a smaller range of usefulness. That's what I was advised though I haven't personally used a CZ.

Check out the Selden website there is lots of info there including for CZ. Other brands I don't know as there is a nearby Selden agent who was helpful.

[aitch]

CZ or assy almost entirely depends on your boat, not the opinions of others with different vessels.
Start with the polar diagram for your vessel and that will tell you the relative performance for wind angle and wind speed.
I have both and I use the CZ far more frequently. It fuels on its own luff so it can be left up, though it is easy to drop and re-rig.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by aitch

CZ or assy almost entirely depends on your boat, not the opinions of others with different vessels.
Start with the polar diagram for your vessel and that will tell you the relative performance for wind angle and wind speed.
I have both and I use the CZ far more frequently. It fuels on its own luff so it can be left up, though it is easy to drop and re-rig.

Very much on target I'd say. And it's well worth comparing your sail inventory vs. your polars, in order to determine what hole(s) you're looking to fill. Especially if you're making an either or choice, based solely on the purchse of only a sail. However, if you're looking at the whole hardware setup, then things may be a bit different.

What Kestrahl stated is very much on target, & true; on all counts.

With some adjustment to the hardware, you can run a Code 0 on a spinnaker furler. Although it isn't an ideal setup. The reverse isn't true however. Meaning that you can't rune an Asymmetric kite on a Code 0 furler.

And yes, as stated, for a true Code 0, you need a Lot more luff tension 2:1 or more. This being that due to their original design, Code 0's are meant to be used as a light air, upwind sails (primarily). Though they can be used through some range of reaching angles. But not flown (efficiently) anywhere as deep as an Asymmetric is designed for.

One other thing worth considering, is the price of hardware/furlers required to run either type of sail.
Generally, Code 0's are setup to be run on furlers, almost exclusively. So in addition to the high cost of the sail, there's the high cost of a very much, purpose designed furler for it as well. Plus, a 2:1 or greater purchase on the halyard, or tack fitting.

Where as if you get any type of spinnaker, regardless of what AWA it's cut for, you can fly it sans; furling gear, & even without sock/snuffer. Or, you can buy furling gear for it, but this also requires an anti-torsion cable also.
The trick/catch being, that for about the price of an anti-torsion cable, you can get a dedicated snuffer/sock for it. And thus, still be able to fly it short-handed, but for a LOT less than if you try & run it with furling gear. Or than it's possible to run a Code 0 with or without furling gear.

I've queried a few folks about their top down furlers, as well as snuffers. Plus done some inquiries on Real (as in racing type) Code 0's. And it seems that unless you plan to race, the consensus is, that you're likely better off to get the asymmetric of your choice with a sock for it.

If you want to do some reading, in terms of what I dug up, I posted a SERIOUSLY in depth questionnaire on Code 0 Furlers over on Sailing Anarchy Forums (my handle's the same there). And also, there's a thread there on Top Down Furlers.

Between all of those, plus me asking some in depth questions of folks with; Top Down Spinnaker Furlers, Code 0 Furlers, & Spinnaker Snuffers on here, that's where the above conclusions came from.

[meirriba]

As to leaving CZ or Asymm. permanently rigged:
If it is used continously, it may be left furled. But as already mentioned above, it needs attention during furling to ensure there is no leftover of the roach open. This, in strong wind will unfurl and shred the sail.
Another very important point - these sails, as standard, do not have anti UV strip at foot and leech. So the sun will work hard to destroy the sail. If not used for a day or so, we take our sail down into a (dark) locker.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

With some adjustment to the hardware, you can run a Code 0 on a spinnaker furler. Although it isn't an ideal setup. The reverse isn't true however. Meaning that you can't rune an Asymmetric kite on a Code 0 furler.

Sorry but you are wrong.

I have a code 1 on a Selden CX25 C1 roller. I since bought a North G2 which is mounted on a luff rope with a Selden top down roller adapter, which uses my existing CX25. So now the CX 25 lives on my bowsprit ready for either sail to be used. 😃




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[DefinitelyMe]

A Gennaker will be more versatile but also less good at doing any one thing. A code zero is only good for going upwind in light air. Both will furl, but the code zero will probably furl better on account of having greater luff tension.

Speaking of luff tension, to fly a code zero properly you need to have a silly amount of pressure on the halyard and tack lines, which may not be desirable. If flying it for a long period of time, the halyard will chafe a lot at the top of the mast. When racing in the Newport Bermuda race last year our code zero was invaluable, but we snapped 3 halyards, and they were brand new and good line.

[Schooner Chandlery]

DefinitelyMe -- what kind of line were your halyards that you were snapping with your Code zero? Dyneema or just some sort of VLS polyester? Thanks!

[DefinitelyMe]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

DefinitelyMe -- what kind of line were your halyards that you were snapping with your Code zero? Dyneema or just some sort of VLS polyester? Thanks!

Oh i'm not sure i'm afraid, but it was on a very fancy 42' carbon-fibre racing yacht and the owner likes spending lots of money on the newest material. It was probably a dyneema or vectran core, definitely not polyester. They snapped because of chafe, not load per-se, but of course the load is a big factor, particularly when you consider that the mast is pumping back and forth with every wave and the halyard is moving through the sheave probably 3 inches or so with every pump. We started off with the halyard made, then eased it about 2 inches every 6 hours or so so it would chafe on a new point. Even so we went through 3 and had to re-do the splices and shorten the halyards - a pretty standard tactic for ocean racing boats. A standard spinnaker is bad enough at sea for chafe, but a code zero is far worse, and for that reason i don't personally have one for cruising on my own boat. In my opinion it's too high-maintenance and too lacking in versatility, as it's only good for going upwind in light air. My heavy old cruising boat can manage 45 to 50 degrees (apparent) with an asymmetric chute (gennaker) anyway in light conditions, so the code zero only gets you an extra 5 degrees and an extra knot, maybe knot and a half compared to a genoa. Crucial for a racer, not so much for a cruiser unless those are the kinds of conditions you regularly sail in. At least this has been my experience.......

[happytogether]

I just purchased a code zero for my catamaran and last Saturday had the best sail of my life. 10 knots true and 11 knots boat speed. Easy to launch and furl. Essentially just another jib although our furling line runs to the cockpit which is nice. I flew it from 60 to 160 and it was awesome. I am hooked. No UV strip as mentioned so we will leave up while on board and take down between trips. And it looks cool up BTW


Randy
S/V Happy Together

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by happytogether

I just purchased a code zero for my catamaran and last Saturday had the best sail of my life. 10 knots true and 11 knots boat speed. Easy to launch and furl. Essentially just another jib although our furling line runs to the cockpit which is nice. I flew it from 60 to 160 and it was awesome. I am hooked. No UV strip as mentioned so we will leave up while on board and take down between trips. And it looks cool up BTW


Randy
S/V Happy Together

I suppose very much as a generalisation that code zeros suit catamarans because their generally greater speed than monohulls means that the apparent wind comes ahead more quickly favouring a flatter sail. Flatter than a gennaker that is.

[DefinitelyMe]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

I suppose very much as a generalisation that code zeros suit catamarans because their generally greater speed than monohulls means that the apparent wind comes ahead more quickly favouring a flatter sail. Flatter than a gennaker that is.

Yea i expect so. They are great sails for ghosting. But, if happytogether is using it for those kinds of wind angles then they aren't using it as a code zero at all. Those are A3 wind angles.