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Old 09-11-2015, 11:39   #31
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

Thank you for your replies. Perhaps, it isn't that the headsail is too large but that I need to experiment further. Just wonder what is the use for an 80% jib, which P.S. used to offer as an optional feature for the Flickaf?
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:04   #32
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

I use my 83% jib all the time - I install it in April, take it down in October. This is for San Francisco Bay where the thermal winds really get up in summer.

Once the wind is up to 20 kts apparent, there's no speed penalty at all. In fact, on anything higher than beam reach, there's an advantage. Smaller flatter jibs are great for upwind work.

The disadvantage vs. a larger jib is for downwind work.
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Old 09-11-2015, 16:44   #33
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
That's not "heaving to", it's just "stalling" the boat by another method.

The beauty of heaving to, is that to get out, all one has to do is tack the jib and fall off.

Some boats are very difficult to bring out of a stalled condition, under reefed main alone, especially under lighter conditions.

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Different strokes and different boats for different folks.

Several times in Indonesia I've gone out in the ocean with local fishermen in their dugout canoes with 2 bamboo outriggers. They usually have a short unstayed mast well forward and quite a large lanteen style sail curving back on a sprit. Returning towards the shore they need to "heave to" to time the crossing of the coral reef.

They simply line up with the reef crossing and allow the sail to flap completely forward with no rigging in the way. The vessel just sits there "hove to" going up and down with the waves. When a suitable big wave comes from behind they haul the single part mainsheet back catching the wind and surfing over the reef.

Try stopping like that with our "modern" rigs.
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Old 09-11-2015, 21:25   #34
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by GrahamHO View Post
Different strokes and different boats for different folks.

Several times in Indonesia I've gone out in the ocean with local fishermen in their dugout canoes with 2 bamboo outriggers. They usually have a short unstayed mast well forward and quite a large lanteen style sail curving back on a sprit. Returning towards the shore they need to "heave to" to time the crossing of the coral reef.

They simply line up with the reef crossing and allow the sail to flap completely forward with no rigging in the way. The vessel just sits there "hove to" going up and down with the waves. When a suitable big wave comes from behind they haul the single part mainsheet back catching the wind and surfing over the reef.

Try stopping like that with our "modern" rigs.
????? The OP is asking about heaving to in a Flicka 20.
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Old 09-11-2015, 21:58   #35
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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????? The OP is asking about heaving to in a Flicka 20.
And you were talking about "some boats" so I thought I'd mention "some boats" too.
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Old 12-11-2015, 13:54   #36
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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And you were talking about "some boats" so I thought I'd mention "some boats" too.
I see; the price of tea is...
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Old 12-11-2015, 14:17   #37
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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I see; the price of tea is...
Hell, you're not going to have a tea party in Boston are you?
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Old 12-11-2015, 14:19   #38
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamHO View Post
Different strokes and different boats for different folks.

Several times in Indonesia I've gone out in the ocean with local fishermen in their dugout canoes with 2 bamboo outriggers. They usually have a short unstayed mast well forward and quite a large lanteen style sail curving back on a sprit. Returning towards the shore they need to "heave to" to time the crossing of the coral reef.

They simply line up with the reef crossing and allow the sail to flap completely forward with no rigging in the way. The vessel just sits there "hove to" going up and down with the waves. When a suitable big wave comes from behind they haul the single part mainsheet back catching the wind and surfing over the reef.

Try stopping like that with our "modern" rigs.
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Old 22-11-2015, 08:19   #39
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

Thanks for all your replies and discussion of an 80% jib. Happy sailing to all.
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Old 22-11-2015, 08:56   #40
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by seasick View Post
I recommend a different approach to heaving-to. With a reefed mainsail as the only sail up, center the helm and let her go. The boat will maintain very little headway. Just enough to protect your rudder and the resultant motion of the vessel will be far less animated.
I believe this is called "Fore reaching" Lin & Larry Pardey
http://www.amazon.com/Storm-Tactics-.../dp/1929214472

PROMO -

We sat through their lecture at the ALL SAIL BOAT SHOW in Chicago a few years ago. Very excellent discussion. They handed out a condensed small version which I re-read. I can't recommend this highly enough as a de-mystifying aid to storm survival.
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Old 22-11-2015, 09:10   #41
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I use my 83% jib all the time - I install it in April, take it down in October. This is for San Francisco Bay where the thermal winds really get up in summer.

Once the wind is up to 20 kts apparent, there's no speed penalty at all. In fact, on anything higher than beam reach, there's an advantage. Smaller flatter jibs are great for upwind work.

The disadvantage vs. a larger jib is for downwind work.
Totally correct on that.

We are a massively heavy, part full keel ketch, 58 feet with cutter-rigged foredeck. Our #1 genoa is 135% and the cutter head sail is 2/3 hoist and barely overlaps the mast. In winds 10 to 20 and cracked off more than a tiny bit, we use the cutter staysail and #1. Winds increasing and towards the nose, we roll up the #1 and mizzen and sail with the smaller jib and possibly reduce the main.

Beam reach up the channel entry to Muskegon Lake from Lake Michigan. Did this once with the kite up too.
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Old 22-11-2015, 10:56   #42
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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I use my 83% jib all the time - I install it in April, take it down in October. This is for San Francisco Bay where the thermal winds really get up in summer.

Once the wind is up to 20 kts apparent, there's no speed penalty at all. In fact, on anything higher than beam reach, there's an advantage. Smaller flatter jibs are great for upwind work.

The disadvantage vs. a larger jib is for downwind work.
I do exactly the same for Auckland NZ but use it for winter sailing here. The same months as summer SF.
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Old 22-11-2015, 13:07   #43
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

Every boat is different in terms of heaving to or fore-reaching while in the hove to state. Also, the same boat will have vastly different behavior given different wind speeds, different trip loading, how full are the water tanks, etc? Along the lines of never-say-never, it's a changing landscape of behavior for most boats.

What's happening?

Above the waterline, in general--the windage forward of the boat's fore-and-aft CG is trying to take the boat to leeward and the windage aft of the CG is trying to take her up into the wind (to weather).

Below the waterline, the hull form is responding similarly to the forces of the water. If you have a full keel boat with barn door rudder, all that underwater profile is a benefit to creating that nice slick of calming water that you can essentially ride out some weather as you sit behind it. Fore-reaching too much takes one out of the slick and diminishes the benefit of the hove to state. The more sail you have up, the more fore reaching (forereacing? fore-reaching ) that occurs.

That's a very simplistic statement but generally paints the picture.

The bigger the winds, the less sail area needed to achieve the hove to state. So, it's a constantly varying thing. No absolute "do x and you'll be fine" in all conditions for any boat, much less all boats.

Once the boat is in the hove to state (which may or may not involved a significant bit of fore-reaching really dependent upon how much sail was used to keep the boat hove to...) there's a nice little oscillation that transpires. The windage aft trying to point you up and then the forward windage (provided by that scrap of jib) trying to take you leeward. We're taught in the classic discussion for heaving to that rudder is set to take one into the wind, but depending on the balance of sail and underwater profile of the boat, the rudder may be set to a different position or neutral.

The above and below water hull form contributes to the boat's ability to heave to easily.

For example, our (30T, 54' LOD 69' LOA) boat has enough sheer that the bow windage is pretty significant, but being flush deck with a low cabin aft, we have unexpectedly little windage aft. We exacerbate matters by the windage of carrying a 17 ft canoe on deck, forward of the boat's CG and starting a trip, our tankage loads us stern heavy and bow light.

We don't have much of a forekeel but has a deep full keel aft and barn door rudder aft. Given this, when not experiencing the forward momentum of sailing, she wants to turn and run downwind at the drop of a hat and our efforts to heave to, without significant fore-reaching in anything but the lightest of winds mean NO headsail at all--we're presently having a tri-sail made for the specific purpose of heaving to in heavy weather--our mainsail deeply reefed provides too much windage for use in storm conditions and when we counter with a tiny staysail forward, we are fore-reaching more than desired and we oscillate too far off the wind for our liking.

The Flicka 20 has a substantial full keel and aft rudder that should respond well to one's efforts to heave to.



On a boat the size of the Flicka 20, the windage of "things" aboard are going to play into the picture--and even where you've stashed everything below decks (did you fill up the bow of the boat so she's a bit low in the water up forward, for example? will make some difference.

All in all, a teeny little flat jib (a scrap of you furled jib left out) will hopefully do the job of providing the force to leeward countering your rudder set to drive you to windward. Only a bit of practice will tell.

We're a schooner and have the staysail/jib combo to play with. We habitually sail with a high clew Yankee jib and find it very useful. You may evaluate the cut (flat vs full) and the clew height of the sail for all-round utility and think of the heaving to aspects of it as secondary anyway. With a small boat like the Flicka 20, I imagine at sea there's a lot of heaving to needed as conditions rise beyond what the small boat should be sailing in. The only people I know ocean sailing with very small boats also carry a strong, flat storm jib for use in such cases.

I look forward to hearing what you do with your jib, heaving to, and how it all works out on your Flicka 20.

Fair winds,
Brenda
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