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Old 02-11-2015, 10:59   #16
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
You are correct technically. On a larger boat it probably works as lowering a center or dagger board makes all the difference in the world. On a smaller boat it can be hairy since wind is seldom constant and sea state is always a consideration. I guess my definition was the same as a power boat or if the CG asks you to hove to, thus the slack sheets. The 360s I have no idea. I doubt the boat is that unbalanced?
The method I described is what works on my islander 24 but it is a full keel boat so that has a lot to do with how I set her. I even do the same when the cg asks me to heave to they have power boats they can and do adjust for my motion. Proper heaving to essentially will stop the boat while maintaining stability.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:19   #17
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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The method I described is what works on my islander 24 but it is a full keel boat so that has a lot to do with how I set her. I even do the same when the cg asks me to heave to they have power boats they can and do adjust for my motion. Proper heaving to essentially will stop the boat while maintaining stability.
24 or 42? I think 42 and full keel give you a good bite on the water.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:30   #18
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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24 or 42? I think 42 and full keel give you a good bite on the water.
My 24 islander is tiller steered and that's the method I use on it on the 42 I do same but I engage the auto helm to maintains the heading ( wheel helm)
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:36   #19
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Greetings,
I have a Pacific Seacraft Flicka which has a problem with heave to using the 100 jib. She wants to turn in circles with a full main. Thinking the headsail is too large. Would appreciate comments about sailing or heave-to with an 80% jib. Thanks.
If you think that, and you have a roller reefing headsail, you could roll it in part way and see whether that helps. Just tack your main without releasing your jib sheet and tie the helm over and you should heave to nicely and be able to eat your lunch.


I do have a roller reefing headsail furler and I have an additional heavier jib around 75% the normal jib. In a fresh breeze it points better and goes faster to windward than a partly rolled up jib. I can change them easily with my ReefRite furler. I attach the spinnaker topping lift to above the upper swivel to prevent the several feet of exposed halyard at the top wrapping around the foil.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:40   #20
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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My 24 islander is tiller steered and that's the method I use on it on the 42 I do same but I engage the auto helm to maintains the heading ( wheel helm)
I believe it depends on the boat? I had a Sunrunner tri I couldn't get into the wind worth a damn. A mono with a hell of a weather helm and a Piver that would dance if you asked it to.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:51   #21
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

The op has a flicka and it is a full keel boat with barn door rudder similar profile to my islander we just need more specific info like which way is the boat trying to turn when attempting to hove to.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:55   #22
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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What's your procedure you are using to heave to your main should not be powered at all infact should be flogging
Seems to me that some folks on this thread (like the quoted post above) need a refresher on heaving to.

Sailing into the wind, take in the mainsail and jib sheets, then come about allowing the jib to back wind, then immediately turn the helm steering the boat back into the wind and fix the helm in that position. Easy, takes about 30 seconds.

No flogging sails, no slapping sheets...

Everything just calms down.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:57   #23
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by sustutt View Post
Thanks for your replies. Thanks for your questions.

I used to have a Contessa 26 and she could heave easily, regardless of winds. I was using an 85 jib.

I have found the Flicka can heave-to in very light winds 5k or less (100 jib plus main), but in the 10-15K range (where I have really tried to do it) she goes in a circle, makes a full 360 deg. turn.

My procedure is to tack to enter. All sheets are tight. The jib is back-winded. Main is at close-hauled or close-reached. Tiller is placed to leeward. Heave-to is to keep boat at approx. 60 degrees to wind, creating a slick to windward. So why is she turning in circles ?
Any further comments or critiques would be appreciated . Thanks.
Hi,
I instruct on Glenans G570 19ft keelboats, which, when attempting to heave to in the manner you describe, have a tendency to maintain their momentum and tack back onto the original tack. The only way to counter this is to sheet out the mainsail completely, immediately after the bow turns through the wind, then gradually move the tiller to leeward, (towards the boom), as the boat slows down. The hove-to status is then maintained by the backed jib (either 80% or 100%) counteracting the fully deflected rudder, with the mainsail fully out and providing no power whatsoever.
The action you describe is more akin to what the French call sailing "a la cap", whereby you slow the boat right down but still achieve forward motion, very useful for picking up a mooring buoy or a MOB, but it is not genuinely heaving-to.
You might have more success if you simply winch the jib across into the backed position, dump the mainsheet and move the tiller toward the boom as the speed decays.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:00   #24
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Seems to me that some folks on this thread (like the quoted post above) need a refresher on heaving to.

Sailing into the wind, take in the mainsail and jib sheets, then come about allowing the jib to back wind, then immediately turn the helm steering the boat back into the wind and fix the helm in that position. Easy, takes about 30 seconds.

No flogging sails, no slapping sheets...

Everything just calms down.
I do as suggested and my islander will fall off to windward almost instantly and continue sailing. techniques for each boat and hull form is different by its nature. Your way it seems would work great for a fin keeler but IME doesntmwork so well for a full keeler like both of my boats.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:13   #25
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
The op has a flicka and it is a full keel boat with barn door rudder similar profile to my islander we just need more specific info like which way is the boat trying to turn when attempting to hove to.
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Old 02-11-2015, 15:44   #26
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

I had the chance to sail a Flicka this Fall in Marion,MA which a friend had just bought. We got to talking because she was rigged with a Monitor wind vane, and I am adding a vane to my J42. We sailed in about 10 kt of breeze with his full main and high clew lapper jib. He had reported the boat has so much lee helm that he was completely unable to tack with over 20k of breeze. I confirmed the lee helm and found her very hard to bring about, even with proper sail trim. We had to back the jib to get the bow thru the wind.

The mast as set up by our local boatyard was already noticeably raked aft. I suggested he buy a toggle for his headstay if needed, and rake the mast further aft. The twin backstay turnbuckles were within an inch of max retraction, so I suggested he rig a tackle with riding sheaves on the backstays to bring the rig aft. I thought perhaps the not inconsiderable weight of the Monitor hanging off the transom was dragging his stern enough to move the center of lateral resistance too far aft, causing the dangerous and inefficient lee helm.

If the OP also has lee helm, maybe this is just the nature of the Flicka? Hard to believe Bruce Bingham could have gotten it that wrong.

Cheers
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Old 02-11-2015, 16:51   #27
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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The method I described is what works on my islander 24 but it is a full keel boat so that has a lot to do with how I set her. I even do the same when the cg asks me to heave to they have power boats they can and do adjust for my motion. Proper heaving to essentially will stop the boat while maintaining stability.
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Originally Posted by Boston Blackie View Post
I had the chance to sail a Flicka this Fall in Marion,MA which a friend had just bought. We got to talking because she was rigged with a Monitor wind vane, and I am adding a vane to my J42. We sailed in about 10 kt of breeze with his full main and high clew lapper jib. He had reported the boat has so much lee helm that he was completely unable to tack with over 20k of breeze. I confirmed the lee helm and found her very hard to bring about, even with proper sail trim. We had to back the jib to get the bow thru the wind.

The mast as set up by our local boatyard was already noticeably raked aft. I suggested he buy a toggle for his headstay if needed, and rake the mast further aft. The twin backstay turnbuckles were within an inch of max retraction, so I suggested he rig a tackle with riding sheaves on the backstays to bring the rig aft. I thought perhaps the not inconsiderable weight of the Monitor hanging off the transom was dragging his stern enough to move the center of lateral resistance too far aft, causing the dangerous and inefficient lee helm.

If the OP also has lee helm, maybe this is just the nature of the Flicka? Hard to believe Bruce Bingham could have gotten it that wrong.

Cheers
Blackie
I don't know the Flicka but generally mast rake makes minimal difference to weather or lee helm. You can see that if you draw the center of effort V center of lateral resistance diagrams.

If you have a baggy or full cut jib and a flat mainsail you can get lee helm.
You can counter that by pulling the main further in and freeing the jib more or sheeting it further out, or better still getting the jib recut. Or maybe a smaller jib.

If the lee helm can't be adjusted with sheeting etc and as you suggest the boat trim, stepping the mast further aft or lengthening the boom are drastic remedies.

If it still has lee helm with only the main up there might be major problems.

Boats like the AMCUP monohulls rake their masts aft going to windward and slightly forward off the wind. This is partly because the wind doesn't blow quite horizontally but rather slightly downward. Raking the mast then keeps the wind flow more at right angles to the mast.
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Old 02-11-2015, 17:44   #28
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Just curious, what are doing with your jib sheets? Seems as though they should both be relaxed and you should be hearing that ugly slapping sound of the jib.
??? No, no, no! Being hove-to does not mean destroying your jib. The windward sheet needs tension to keep the sail from flapping.
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Old 02-11-2015, 18:23   #29
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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Originally Posted by sustutt View Post
Greetings,
I have a Pacific Seacraft Flicka which has a problem with heave to using the 100 jib. She wants to turn in circles with a full main. Thinking the headsail is too large. Would appreciate comments about sailing or heave-to with an 80% jib. Thanks.
Full keel vs fin keel boats feel different (fin keels respond quicker) but the principles for heaving to are the same.

The usual culprit for having this trouble (turning 360) is either:

a) Too little way on when attempting to throw the boat into a heave to state.

b) Releasing the mainsheet too soon.

With too little forward momentum, once the boat starts turning, (say to starboard) and the foresail backwinds, the rudder stalls, the boat has no lift, and you can't turn up to windward.

If you release the main too soon, all CE is forward of CLR and she'll spin around fast as lightning.

So here's my recommendation:

1. Don't be bashful. Anything worth doing, is worth doing with conviction. ;-)
2. With full forward momentum, turn the boat through the wind.
3. As soon as the foresail backwinds, turn up to windward (not so much rudder to stop the boat, but enough to turn up).
4. As the boat turns up, and approaches the "heave to" position, release the main sheet (not before). Ensure you do release the mainsheet, or she could turn back through the wind and load up the foresail again.

Try this technique and I'm confident you'll be successful.

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Old 02-11-2015, 18:35   #30
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Re: Anyone sail with an 80% jib or less?

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I recommend a different approach to heaving-to. With a reefed mainsail as the only sail up, center the helm and let her go. The boat will maintain very little headway. Just enough to protect your rudder and the resultant motion of the vessel will be far less animated.
That's not "heaving to", it's just "stalling" the boat by another method.

The beauty of heaving to, is that to get out, all one has to do is tack the jib and fall off.

Some boats are very difficult to bring out of a stalled condition, under reefed main alone, especially under lighter conditions.

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