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Old 13-01-2012, 14:25   #106
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
This is an interesting and timely thread.

I am due to replace all my standing rigging this year and have a few questions...

1. What is the cost comparison, not including fittings, for changing over. The last costs discussed were when this thread was in 2008

2. I have a Profurl furling system on my head stay. Has anyone replaced their headstay with a similar setup? I am concerned about chafe, especially hidden chafe

3. I also have an inner stay that I use for hank on sails, I saw the post showing hanks designed for the material, does anyone have experience with this as I am concerned with chafe here as well

4. Chafe seems to be a theme here...how does one dress the rigging where it passes through the spreaders?

5. Last question, I use my back stay for my ssb. Is there any issues mixing materials? I.e. can I replace the section for my sub with new wire and then change out the top and bottom ends with synthetic. I am assuming I don't need my isolators as the synthetic doesn't conduct rf?

Lots o questions, thanks
We're going to replace all standing rigging in the next couple of years. These questions are exactly what I would be asking in a couple of years. Hope someone can chime in here.
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Old 13-01-2012, 14:32   #107
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

well... one supplier in particular talks a whole lot about minimum radii, but it is my personal experience there's not THAT much in it.

Note in this picture (if it works), the sprit bobstay (sprit is upside down, look at the top of the sprit, at the yoke nearest the bow) is made as a luggage-tag type loop through the flat plate of the tang. I just replaced that bobstay, which was probably 10 or more years old, because the TANG failed. That is to say, the metal failed, not the line. Actually, the top tang failed (where the furler attaches).



I've got halyards dead-ended as luggage tags made onto eyestraps on my mast, too.

What I'm saying is, both examples I mention are pretty small radii. The thing is, HMPE lines are SO very strong that in order to size for handle-ability, you're so oversized for strength that failure is relatively, well, unlikely.

Look at the L-36 site, he's got great directions for a diamond-knot toggle that I should think might work nicely for lifelines.

These HMPE lines are really something else, they're truly amazing stuff. In fact, my few lifelines are actually recycled running rigging lines.

edit: add another pic for clarity. See below image of sprit in use
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Old 13-01-2012, 17:15   #108
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

tamif27,

So what your saying is the failure rate of a sharp bend is unlikely if the stress is minimal in relation to the size.

I understand for full strength rigging, they have to cover their ass, so they've set a standard. I'll be carrying a section of HMPE w/terminators as back up rigging for the mast. And if it continues to proof I'll probably go all HMPE as the rigging ages.

I really worry about end fittings as the PO of this boat lost a mast already, but suspect a chainplate failure was the cause. I have a 3/16" SS slit thimble, modified/expanded, that I'll give a splice and test with 1/4" Amsteel.
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Old 13-01-2012, 19:55   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey
tamif27,

So what your saying is the failure rate of a sharp bend is unlikely if the stress is minimal in relation to the size.

I understand for full strength rigging, they have to cover their ass, so they've set a standard. I'll be carrying a section of HMPE w/terminators as back up rigging for the mast. And if it continues to proof I'll probably go all HMPE as the rigging ages.

I really worry about end fittings as the PO of this boat lost a mast already, but suspect a chainplate failure was the cause. I have a 3/16" SS slit thimble, modified/expanded, that I'll give a splice and test with 1/4" Amsteel.
For rigging you can't use end fittings. Splice to terminate and deadeyes to tension, like it was done in the past Now you buy high tech deadeyes and line though.


ciao!
Nick.
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Old 14-01-2012, 00:32   #110
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

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For rigging you can't use end fittings.
Nick.
I meant I worry about the end fitting on SS wire.
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Old 14-01-2012, 06:00   #111
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

I used ss timbles that I attached to the old turnbuckles at the aft end which allows for tensioning. Up front I just tied the lines off with an anchor bend stitching the tail to the line and wrapped everything in rescue tape.

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Old 14-01-2012, 06:24   #112
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Dyneema is great stuff, Amsteel would be great for life lines but if you thinking of replacing your shrouds, Amsteel is not a good choice. Dynex Dux is heat treated pre stretched. It stretches 0.001"/ 1000 pounds and it's breaking strength is much higher. Colligo has a lot of great info on there site.
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Old 14-01-2012, 06:37   #113
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

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Originally Posted by SSI / NH View Post
Dyneema is great stuff, Amsteel would be great for life lines but if you thinking of replacing your shrouds, Amsteel is not a good choice. Dynex Dux is heat treated pre stretched. It stretches 0.001"/ 1000 pounds and it's breaking strength is much higher. Colligo has a lot of great info on there site.
Yea, I used the 7mm Dynex Dux from Colligo.
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Old 14-01-2012, 07:52   #114
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
This is an interesting and timely thread.

I am due to replace all my standing rigging this year and have a few questions...

1. What is the cost comparison, not including fittings, for changing over. The last costs discussed were when this thread was in 2008

2. I have a Profurl furling system on my head stay. Has anyone replaced their headstay with a similar setup? I am concerned about chafe, especially hidden chafe

3. I also have an inner stay that I use for hank on sails, I saw the post showing hanks designed for the material, does anyone have experience with this as I am concerned with chafe here as well

4. Chafe seems to be a theme here...how does one dress the rigging where it passes through the spreaders?

5. Last question, I use my back stay for my ssb. Is there any issues mixing materials? I.e. can I replace the section for my sub with new wire and then change out the top and bottom ends with synthetic. I am assuming I don't need my isolators as the synthetic doesn't conduct rf?

Lots o questions, thanks
I can't answer them all but here's my take on things:

1) my guess is the same price or close.

2) I would keep 1x19 A4 (316) quality stainless for the furler.

3) Just keep using the brass or bronze (what is it?) hanks. Inspect them so make sure there is no damage or sharp edges on any.

4) You have 2 choices for chafing protection. At the spreaders, it is best to splice a polyester cover onto the shroud. At other points, like where my lifeline touches a shroud, I dress the line with very small (1/8") line in an old fashioned way. This needs replacing every 5 years or so, which is only a couple of minutes of work and at near zero cost.

For a protection cover, you can buy just a cover or you can remove it from another line. Here is a special cover that I bought:

As you can see I got 600' so have plenty to sell if you ever meet us What you do is cut a piece off that is 1' longer than needed, put it over the line and move to the marked position. Then comb each end out to loose threads for 6" Divide that into 6 neat bundles and tape them. Splice all six into the core of the shroud using a splicing wand. When done, the outer cover disappears into the core of the line that it is around. Now tension the line using cleat and winch. While tensioned check for neatness and when satisfied lock both ends with a sailmakers whipping (stitch & whip).

Let me see if I have a pic for that... ( of course I do haha )
This one is from a piece of cover taken off a double braid line for protecting a Brummel splice against UV damage and the masthead sheave as this is a Vectran jib halyard:

and the finished splice:

Neat huh, I wonder how the armchair experts are going to attack me on this one

Here's another example using the special cover I showed above; This little piece is actually becoming the part that wraps around a thimble:

result:

Tensioning before locking in place with stitched whipping:


When you do any running rigging, you might have to change clutches like I had to:

Check out the halyard here; this is after 3 years of use. Vectran deteriates much faster than Spectra/Dyneema! The new clutch is a Spinlock.

5) SSB Antenna. Just take a 50' length of AWG14 marine wire and waterproof the upper end and splice it into the core of the backstay. Lock it in place with a whipping at the top and let it exit the core just above deck level. Laugh yourself crazy about all the folk with expensive and not 100% secure insulators and their faces when they discover how you did this

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 14-01-2012, 08:53   #115
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

I'm getting confused about the applications here, so I'll try to clarify.

As has been mentioned, for standing rigging, one would use Dynex Dux. It's pre-stretched heat-treated Dyneema fibre. Dynex yachting lines from Hampidjan, the manufacturer: http://www.hampidjan.is/media/PDF/Dy...SpreadLres.pdf

Dyneema and Spectra are similar (hi-molecular weight hi-modulus line). Vectran, Kevlar, PBO, those are not same as Dyneema/Spectra. Article at Wikipedia: Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For running rigging and any other applications, Amsteel is good. I also use Amsteel for my terminators/deadeyes on my standing rigging. Amsteel is made by Samson, and is a Dyneema fibre line.

I've found that for most applications, the turning radius isn't as critical as has been implied. I do NOT apply that statement to standing rigging, but then I wouldn't take a chance on something as important as my mast. But see next paragraph.

My shrouds are Précourt, and I've been VERY pleased. My shrouds are I guess 9-10 years by now (they were already on the boat when I purchased her in 2005). They do not live in UV all the time - I'd probably have replaced in 6-7 years if they did. I'd replace steel in at most 10 years. Last I checked, steel is more expensive than textile.

Neat thing about textile rigging.... once you have the fittings you can redo your own rigging, for splicing is dead easy with HMPE line. For HMPE, Brummel splice a very nicely tapered 72 DIAMETER tail. A fair taper is important, as is a long tail.

There are coatings available that can help longevity. I think what I've got is Yale Maxi-Jacket. It's a latex-y type grey paint that I just paint on the line anywhere I think it's going to be chafed.


Nick, maybe i'm stating the obvious, but you could put a bit of cover over the line where it goes thru the clutch. And I think we both know that even though the line looks pretty ugly, it's still strong as Hell, I'm sure
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Old 14-01-2012, 10:03   #116
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

You see it right.

For halyards I would buy Amsteel next time instead of my (more expensive) Vectran. I do have a cover on the regular positions for raised and reefed sails, just not for the halyard parked with the sails down as in the photo.

Spectra and Dyneema is the same thing I think. So Dynex and Amsteel is the same except for the stretch & heat treatment.

Many people reading about synthetic rigging fear the splices so it is important to repeat that anybody from age 8 onwards can do this splice with the eyes closed. I can even do it with just scissors and a small piece of tape, no other tools required, although fids make it easier.

ciao!
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Old 14-01-2012, 11:00   #117
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Amsteel would be a good choice for running rigging, it has a little of stretch and good strength. You might have to add a cover where it goes thru a clutch so it doesn't slip. New England Ropes and Samson offer covers.
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Old 14-01-2012, 11:03   #118
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Vectran is not very popular, but warp speed is very close and less expensive
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Old 14-01-2012, 12:42   #119
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Spectra and Dyneema are the same, different brands/producers. Both are the raw fibre. Hampidjan makes Dynex lines from Dyneema fibre, Samson makes Amsteel lines from Dyneema fibre.

-----


Warpspeed is a covered Amsteel (Dyneema uhmwpe) line, it's not vectran (aramid). I use it for my mainsheet and my daggerboard up/down line. It's really neat for stripping/tapers.

-----

from wikipedia:
vectran Vectran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

see above link for uhmwpe line which is different stuff.
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Old 14-01-2012, 14:59   #120
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Re: Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
I used ss timbles that I attached to the old turnbuckles at the aft end which allows for tensioning. Up front I just tied the lines off with an anchor bend stitching the tail to the line and wrapped everything in rescue tape.

Attachment 35947
I'll probably end up doing the same. I want to be able to pull the lines during winter to avoid moss build up. This is why I attempted an end fitting. But instead may go with a thimble thru the loop at the stanchion end, passing back thru the line 3-4 times and whipit.
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