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johnpair · 13-12-2008, 21:58

So, what we're trying for has already been found.
Costs, while advancing in this direction, the "guy wires" have already disappeared.
Check the USPTO on passenger aircraft wing construction.
Those wide and thin Kevlar belts that are used on your marina travelifts (which can lift many tons) are INSIDE the wings of these aircrafts, strategically placed. They, of course have limitations of their own.
Waiting to go up in my Cessna, I've waited at a few airstrips, studying low level airway charts.
When you wait in a marina, and the wind kicks up, the sound is simply infernal...
Gashmore, it will be done, one way or the other, and, the cost will come down, like everything else that's new... you just need to get out there and invent, can YOU do that? and if not, why not?
J.P.

Jmolan · 14-12-2008, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnpair

So, what we're trying for has already been found.
Costs, while advancing in this direction, the "guy wires" have already disappeared.
Check the USPTO on passenger aircraft wing construction.
Those wide and thin Kevlar belts that are used on your marina travelifts (which can lift many tons) are INSIDE the wings of these aircrafts, strategically placed. They, of course have limitations of their own.
Waiting to go up in my Cessna, I've waited at a few airstrips, studying low level airway charts.
When you wait in a marina, and the wind kicks up, the sound is simply infernal...
Gashmore, it will be done, one way or the other, and, the cost will come down, like everything else that's new... you just need to get out there and invent, can YOU do that? and if not, why not?
J.P.

YouTube - NEMA Fleet, Part 2, Newick Trimaran PAT'S BOAT

Watch the video of Newiks boatpersonal boat called Pats. It is sailing unstayed and boomless along with Chris Whites Juniper. Juniper was unstayed for quite a while....tehn Chris switched to wires and rotatiing win masts. It is sailing in this video in that set up.
Chris like the unstayed mast set up Untill the wind started to pick up some. You see a multi hull is VERY stable compared to a monohull. If an unstayed mono gets a puff, it can just roll a bit and dump air. If a multi gets a puff it caused the masted to bend off and dump power right when you think it is time to get going.
I have no doubt the technology is available for a good unstayed mono rig But for a multi I am not so sure. what was that amazing big cat in geat britian that had to giant rotating wings that eventually failed out at sea.
when cost is no option, I can bet these guys would pick not only the best available, but the best that is unavailable.
BMW Oracle Multihull Sailboat Testing | YachtPals.com

BMW Oracle is unbelievable in so many ways, but they still got a few wires (I bet not wire) Holding that Carbon fiber stick up there. Look at the girth of that thing compared to the humans on board.

johnpair · 14-12-2008, 18:50

Jmolan,
Nice boat, the Oracle... just a little bit out of my budget, I bet a few M $$$ went into research, and a few more M $$$ for construction.
The Freebom series are very nice boats indeed, but not my cup of tea. I know there is little room for sail configuration, but they would have to (impossibly) avail a cutter.
I'm sure you do remember the Nonsuch 30s 33s and 36s. Good old aluminum tapered telephone poles for masts, and no wires. One Nonsuch 30 was found drifting, undamaged, months after the crew had evacuated, during a storm.
Whatever happened to the Amoco Procyon project... a wing keel canting to windward and a pivoting bipodal (A frame) mast and, of course, no wires.
Given the reality of the economy, research on new (toy) technology is not going to resurface for a while, so we'll just have to content ourselves with our own creativity

Weyalan · 17-12-2008, 17:23

For those of you who have switched to synthetic (Dynex?) standing rigging (Jmolan?), can I ask whether you considered going with a double braid construction with Dynex core and braided cover for UV resistance / chafe proofing? If you did consider and decided to go with the uncovered 12-strand, why? weight?

Jmolan · 18-12-2008, 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weyalan

For those of you who have switched to synthetic (Dynex?) standing rigging (Jmolan?), can I ask whether you considered going with a double braid construction with Dynex core and braided cover for UV resistance / chafe proofing? If you did consider and decided to go with the uncovered 12-strand, why? weight?

Weyalan...I kicked around as many options as I could think of and many someone else thought of. As far as a cover, there is nothing wrong with that except it might make it a bit larger. In the big boat buisness (commercial fishing) we order 1" Dux and they will splice they eye, then overbraid a cover that is extreamly tight and tough. The rope is a s stiff as wire (well almost, it still does not act like wire, no twisting etc.)

/ Ropes

Look at the top left thumbnail for a phot of the stuff we use up north fishing. I see in one of the other sheets (coverbraid) the minimum size is 11mm and it ends up 16mm. Comes in at 16 tons Breaking strength. You could lift most sailboats on this forum with it...:-)

I have a lot of experience with Dux on a work boat, and feel confident in using it "raw". I also in some ways want to put to the test. It will take number of years to get any sort of conclusions I am afraid though.
I would suspect chaff wise the sails will suffer rather than the rope. I do not have any more wire on the boat to cause chaff anywhere. I am going to run regular hanks on both the headsail and staysail to see if we can get an idea if there is a problem there......And the UV we will be testing at one year intervals I would project. So far I have two years in a very sunny and hot place here in Mexico, and I took apart two of the splices to re spliced and the rope looked no different than the new stuff I was splicing.

So I some ways I will be a test boat to see how much abuse I can give the stuff. I will try to take photos and give a report over time.

I looked at new england ropes website the other night. They have a number of fancy covered ropes. None are Dux, they have a covered Dynex (which is what Dux is before they heat it and stretch it) they make a claim to have the strongest rope made. It is about half the breaking strength of what Dux is...:-) but I suspect there will be similar products coming out in the market.

marno · 18-12-2008, 08:27

I am about to replace the steering cable on my Freedom 39 and after reading this thread I thought is sounded like a great option, has anyone any ideas as to whether or not synthetic would be suitable?
Thanks
Marno

Jmolan · 18-12-2008, 11:32

Marno, I have yet to do this but I plan to. I have a center cockpit with a pair of long cables. Make sure you have good turning blocks and fair leads. I know Roym on this forum has already done it and likes it real well. He has a 40' center cockpit Trimaran.
The only thing we have not replaced on our big boat (125') in one cable that runs real close to the main engine exaust. It does not like that kind of heat...:-)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-14322-20.html

What diameter cable is it?

marno · 18-12-2008, 13:36

Thanks J

The wire is just over 6mm (about 1/4"), I will have to climb over to the other side of the engine bay and make sure that the line won't go anywhere near the exhaust, but that is a weekend job.....

Cya

Marno

Weyalan · 18-12-2008, 13:42

Thanks for the feedback. This is, indeed, a most interesting and informative thread.

The reason that I asked is that one of my best mates and I, who both own old (early 80's) IOR "1-tonners" have both recently changed the standing part of our runners from stainless steel wire to synthetic. I chose to go with V100 Vectran with a braided cover, whereas he went with a single braid of what looks to me like Amsteel (or similar - grey colour). I noticed a couple of days ago that his runners were showing some signs of abrasion... I guess because the runners get knocked around more (by the boom) than fixed standing rigging would.

I would love to see some definitive figures for rate of UV degredation (as an aside, I did some testing and wrote a paper for a famous sailmaker, where I did hundreds of tensile tests on some particular exotic sail cloths that had been "aged" by exposure to sun for a a range of time periods, so I have some idea of the theory). I would conduct such tests myself, except (a) our tensile testing machine only tests up to about 1/2 a ton, which is way too low to be useful in the materials under consideration, plus (b) we don't have the right fittings for connecting rope, so I would have to splice all samples... and the paycheck for that piece of research (precisely $0) doesn't justify the time investment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmolan

Weyalan...I kicked around as many options as I could think of and many someone else thought of. As far as a cover, there is nothing wrong with that except it might make it a bit larger. In the big boat buisness (commercial fishing) we order 1" Dux and they will splice they eye, then overbraid a cover that is extreamly tight and tough. The rope is a s stiff as wire (well almost, it still does not act like wire, no twisting etc.)

/ Ropes

Look at the top left thumbnail for a phot of the stuff we use up north fishing. I see in one of the other sheets (coverbraid) the minimum size is 11mm and it ends up 16mm. Comes in at 16 tons Breaking strength. You could lift most sailboats on this forum with it...:-)

I have a lot of experience with Dux on a work boat, and feel confident in using it "raw". I also in some ways want to put to the test. It will take number of years to get any sort of conclusions I am afraid though.
I would suspect chaff wise the sails will suffer rather than the rope. I do not have any more wire on the boat to cause chaff anywhere. I am going to run regular hanks on both the headsail and staysail to see if we can get an idea if there is a problem there......And the UV we will be testing at one year intervals I would project. So far I have two years in a very sunny and hot place here in Mexico, and I took apart two of the splices to re spliced and the rope looked no different than the new stuff I was splicing.

So I some ways I will be a test boat to see how much abuse I can give the stuff. I will try to take photos and give a report over time.

I looked at new england ropes website the other night. They have a number of fancy covered ropes. None are Dux, they have a covered Dynex (which is what Dux is before they heat it and stretch it) they make a claim to have the strongest rope made. It is about half the breaking strength of what Dux is...:-) but I suspect there will be similar products coming out in the market.

Roy M · 18-12-2008, 16:36

Marno, thanks to Jack (Jmolan), for he contacted me about your question. I replaced my steering system on a Searunner 40 tri with an Edson system, using the big sheaves and 1/4" amsteel synthetic line connecting the chain drive to the rudder hardware, via turnbuckles. It was very easy, holds up well, and has everything going for it. You need only learn the special splice, which is three tucks (once through the standing part, once through the running part, and the final tuck through the standing part, then tension the splice by dropping the loop over a deck cleat and taking up maximum tension using the genoa sheet winch, and leaving it that way for a while. Then, use a conventional shackle to connect it to the steering chain, and the other end to a conventional turnbuckle attached to your quadrant (or other rudder hardware). You'll like it.

Jmolan · 19-12-2008, 08:19

This may be splitting hairs....but I thought I would throw this out "just because" it is what is out here and most of it is so new I am into exposing anything I can on this stuff.

Below is a photo of most of my rigging, but on the right is a set up of small deadeye fittings that Colligo just came out with. I intend to use these to take up tension on my steering gear, and life lines when I get back to installing them. The eyes are designed for up to 5mm. I recently saw a sample of 5mm 12 strand made by Marlow that is heated and pre-stretched. I have no experience with it except I understand it will come in white (good for life lines) It will be good to see other companies that will take on heating and stretching of the spectra/dynex to get the huge jump in performance.

I had a question for Roym......did you install the line on an exsiting steering gear or a new one? The reson I ask is I was wondering if you could see any improvement in smoothness or ease of sterring effort?
I just re-hung my rudder after rebuilding it. It feel's really smooth while on land, and I have not yet eliminated the wires. I was very carefull to get all the mountings lined up and square to ease any binding.
Just getting rid of the two big turnbuckles rubbing up against the hull sides will probably help...:-)
Wait till you see my new "invention" for the control lines from the wind vane to the trim tab.....it is the last wire left unless I can discover any more hiding......

marno · 19-12-2008, 08:56

Thanks for the advice Roy. Did you use the existing tube that the wire runs through, or use blocks?
I found a site that shows a splice with the amsteel, yours sounds simpler though http://www.alohaowners.com/pages/pro...es/Amsteel.pdf
Thanks
Marno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy M

Marno, thanks to Jack (Jmolan), for he contacted me about your question. I replaced my steering system on a Searunner 40 tri with an Edson system, using the big sheaves and 1/4" amsteel synthetic line connecting the chain drive to the rudder hardware, via turnbuckles. It was very easy, holds up well, and has everything going for it. You need only learn the special splice, which is three tucks (once through the standing part, once through the running part, and the final tuck through the standing part, then tension the splice by dropping the loop over a deck cleat and taking up maximum tension using the genoa sheet winch, and leaving it that way for a while. Then, use a conventional shackle to connect it to the steering chain, and the other end to a conventional turnbuckle attached to your quadrant (or other rudder hardware). You'll like it.

Jmolan · 19-12-2008, 18:04

Marno, the deck guys on our boat use a version of this stitch splice, they actrually only tuck it 3 or 4 time and bury the tail. I think it is kinda ugly myself, but I have never seen one slip out. It is from the manufacture so it's gotta hold I recon.

http://www.hampidjan.is/media/pdf/Dy...e_wih_head.pdf

I prefer this splice myself

Multi Marine :: The Art and Science of Sailing

Take note of the high tech tools required...:-)

As far as sizing things. I replaced all the 1/4" SS wire (breaking strength 6900 lbs.) With a 7mm Dynex Dux (a heated and stretched version of dynex) It comes in a 15,000 lbs. breaking strength. But it is only available in 7mm as the smallest size. Way to big, and probably too stiff for steering.

Dynex......at 5mm I see Dynex 75 comes in 3.5 tons and 6mm at 4.2 tons. Compare that with type of wire you have been running and I believe you will see you would be upgrading strength wise if you go this route.

http://www.hampidjan.is/media/pdf/Dy...april_2006.pdf

Dynex is spectra is amsteel is all the same stuff. From what I understand it is made in two placecs in the world and company's tag their cool names on it and sell it as theirs.
For rigging however it is not the stuff. You gotta heat it and stretch it to get rid of the creep and stretch that you would experience with a constant load in a standing rig.

Roy M · 19-12-2008, 18:05

Hi folks, I used to have a steering system that used a single cable Morse cable. Then, when I overhauled it, I discovered the cable was no longer made, and Teleflex and others didn't work with the pedestal. So, I bit the bullet, bought an Edson unit, along with their biggest diameter ball bearing sheaves (to reduce friction), and connected the rudder to the pedestal chain with the amsteel, at the recommendation of a rigger friend, Fritz Richardson of Pacific Offshore Rigging in San Diego. It's good to have smart friends. He showed me the splice and that was that. I am going to modify the Searunner tiller arm (abut 12" long) with a quadrant that John Marples introduced me to. It will make the addition of the Raymarine Type 1 linear autopilot drive much easier.

I also built the rudder to accept the trim tab for a wind vane, though haven't installed it yet. It will use an Autohelm wind vane, connected with cables to the trim tab. I'm also considering using a small Autohelm (different company, by the way) tiller drive to actuate the trim tab, as a low power backup. The tiller fitting on my Searunner can be disengaged from the steering wheel and cables and autopilot to allow low friction control by the trim tab. But that's down the road.