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Old 01-04-2012, 20:41   #1
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Adding a Mast Cleat

OK. The furling genny halyard takes up one clutch on the piano, somewhat uselessly.

I got a hold of a suitable cleat and am contemplating attaching to the port side of the mast, securing the halyard and freeing up a clutch. Probably double duty with the topping lift and free a second clutch.

Standard Selden mast extrusion.

Basically planning to drill, tap and bed with stainless screws.

Any thoughts before I screw this up? Is the mast wall thickness enough to hold the machine screws?

Prefer screws as I dont have a rivenut or rivet puller and prefer not to buy one for one job. Standard cleat with two countersunk holes.

FYI. I installed the bracket on the boom for the rod kicker in above manner 3 years ago and it is doing fine but I reckon the genny halyard may have more load on it.
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Old 01-04-2012, 20:52   #2
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Basic mechanical engineering suggest always using a threaded screw that has at least 3 thread within the thickness of the wall of the metal it is threaded into.

One technique used for thin wall masts is to make an aluminum "stand-off" - that is a piece of sheet metal bent to make a platform for the cleat/winch/whatever to be bolted to. The mounting "stand-off/platform" is then riveted to the mast tube using a number of rivets. The forces that the 2 bolts/machine screws used in a normal cleat generate are transferred to many rivets over a larger surface area of the thin mast tube.

Don't forget it is always a good idea to use anhydrous lanolin (Lan-o-cote) or Tufgel on any SS screws/bolts that are in contact with aluminum.
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Old 01-04-2012, 20:53   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif
OK. The furling genny halyard takes up one clutch on the piano, somewhat uselessly.

I got a hold of a suitable cleat and am contemplating attaching to the port side of the mast, securing the halyard and freeing up a clutch. Probably double duty with the topping lift and free a second clutch.

Standard Selden mast extrusion.

Basically planning to drill, tap and bed with stainless screws.

Any thoughts before I screw this up? Is the mast wall thickness enough to hold the machine screws?

Prefer screws as I dont have a rivenut or rivet puller and prefer not to buy one for one job. Standard cleat with two countersunk holes.

FYI. I installed the bracket on the boom for the rod kicker in above manner 3 years ago and it is doing fine but I reckon the genny halyard may have more load on it.
That will work just fine. Use cleats designed for use on masts.

Also, look into using a half halyard for the jib. The other half is more like a messenger line. Many systems use a set of hooks or a small track to secure the halyard instead of a cleat. After winching and securing you can remove half of the halyard to keep things tidy.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 01-04-2012, 21:20   #4
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

A question about using anhydrous lanolin? I used it on my turn buckles when cruising to keep the water out of the threads and it seemed to work OK, but when in the tropics on a really hot day it seemed to melt right out of the threads. It is pretty heat sensitive. I wonder if there is a better anti seize that wont melt out? ___Grant.
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Old 01-04-2012, 21:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan
A question about using anhydrous lanolin? I used it on my turn buckles when cruising to keep the water out of the threads and it seemed to work OK, but when in the tropics on a really hot day it seemed to melt right out of the threads. It is pretty heat sensitive. I wonder if there is a better anti seize that wont melt out? ___Grant.
Yes, tef-gel is the modern replacement. Ps, it is more about preventing galling of the metal than keeping water out. Good turnbuckles have different metals for each threaded part, like steel into bronze. Tef gel also prevents galvanic corrosion.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 01-04-2012, 21:52   #6
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Thanks Nick and Osir.

I'll measure the wall thickness and may have to go with the more robust idea of a doubler plate. Hadn't considered that and glad I asked...

I may just have to bite the bullet and get a rivet puller - Maybe ask around and borrow one...

Interesting idea on the half Halyard. I may be too chicken to cut $400 worth of rope in half - As soon as I do, I'll realize why I shouldn't have - LOL...
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Old 02-04-2012, 00:13   #7
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

My understanding from all of the OLD OLD Gurus (Roth ,Street ,Uncle Eric) was that lanolin was not a lubricant, but was just to keep salt water out. Were they all wrong? ___Grant.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:00   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan
My understanding from all of the OLD OLD Gurus (Roth ,Street ,Uncle Eric) was that lanolin was not a lubricant, but was just to keep salt water out. Were they all wrong? ___Grant.
I still use lanolin in it's current "Lanocoat" appearence. I believe it's marketed by Forespar and indicates use on rigging parts to prevent galling. Being in threads, obviously salt water can't go there as long as the lanolin stays put. That is part of the problem: it disappears rather quick, think months, except deep in the threads. Tef gel stays put much better: years in same scenario.

About the half halyard: it is normally replaced by a much, much thinner Dyneema line (older boats stull have steel wire). The end gets a brummel splice which goes over the hook or car for tensioning it. I have 8mm Vectran halyard with 5mm polyester doublebraid 2nd half. When jib gets removed from furler, I also remove the whole halyard and replace with messenger line which is cheap small stuff for flag lines.

ciao!
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:46   #9
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
A question about using anhydrous lanolin? I used it on my turn buckles when cruising to keep the water out of the threads and it seemed to work OK, but when in the tropics on a really hot day it seemed to melt right out of the threads. It is pretty heat sensitive. I wonder if there is a better anti seize that wont melt out? ___Grant.
Anhydrous lanolin is the natural coating on hair that your wife or lady-friend spends mega-buck washing away so they can replace it with expensive wax (conditioners). In the case of "LanoCote" it comes from the lanolin in sheep's wool, so it inexpensive.

Tufgel or LanoCote? Many different folk swear by one or the other, but I like that you get a large "tub" of LanoCote that lasts longer than a decade (that's how old my tub is) and it still works. But it does get on your fingers and is messy to clean off.

The only real purpose is to prevent the galling and/or mixed metal corrosion down deep in the threaded area. And as stated it is not a lubricant but instead a protectant to keep water away from the metal. I have bolts/screws in my mast that were installed 15 years ago with LanoCote and today I can still remove them without fear of snapping off the heads.

As to the backing plates or stand-off plate bracket, I prefer pop-riveting them with aluminum (aircraft grade) rivets so that I have aluminum to aluminum rather than stainless steel to aluminum. Also, just person preference, but the smooth round tubular shape flush fit into the round hole in the mast makes more sense than the sharp triangular "blades" of a screw putting the aluminum into compression and cutting its way into the metal. But for expected heavy loads I use stainless or monel pop-rivets coated with LanoCote. Also drilling the hole for a perfect fit of the selected pop-rivet, IMHO, is quite important to longevity.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:44   #10
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

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Also drilling the hole for a perfect fit of the selected pop-rivet, IMHO, is quite important to longevity.
Exactly, for each diameter pop-rivet you can look up the drill size in tables. Like for tapping, the accuracy must be to the 10th of a mm, i.e. 4.2mm etc.

These drill bits are of course hard to find. The only place in the Caribbean I know for sure is in Curacao, but they must be available in places like Trinidad and South America too.

You can also ask weird looking guys on boats called Osiris or Jedi as they are highly likely to have all those bits... and the fasteners, taps, dies etc. that go with them

ciao!
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:53   #11
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
A question about using anhydrous lanolin? I used it on my turn buckles when cruising to keep the water out of the threads and it seemed to work OK, but when in the tropics on a really hot day it seemed to melt right out of the threads. It is pretty heat sensitive. I wonder if there is a better anti seize that wont melt out? ___Grant.
Never had it melt out of turnbuckles in the carribean....? You dont need a big goopy amount on turnbuckles, just rub it into the threads.
I have used the lanolin extensively. it is great. Once I started using it on fittings in aluminum with ss screws I never had a seizure. Definitely use it for the cleat. I have found coarse threads best in aluminum. Fine threads might get you the suggested 3 threads, but seem to just pull out the metal. Most masts are built with screwed on cleats, it should hold the halyard fine if the cleat is proper size..
Apparantly some of the other suggestions above are good too, I've just been so pleased with the long term performance of lanolin I have no desire to change. PS: you can get pure lanolin cheap from a old fashioned pharmacy or maybe a pharmeceutical supply on line. One tub will last your lifetime. I've had mine for over 20 years and use it on seacocks as well as the above mentioned things.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:38   #12
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Course thread tapped screws are the accepted way of attaching things to the mast. Just tap the holes for the cleat and screw it on. That has worked fine on all the boats I've owned for going on 50 years. TefGel/lanolin sure has made removing the fasteners easier when that time came.

I need more tension on the furler halyard than I can get by hand when the wind blows. The sail luff, especially at the base puckers in higher winds. Sure you'll be able to live without the tension of a winch/clutch option.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:53   #13
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That will work just fine. Use cleats designed for use on masts.

Also, look into using a half halyard for the jib. The other half is more like a messenger line. Many systems use a set of hooks or a small track to secure the halyard instead of a cleat. After winching and securing you can remove half of the halyard to keep things tidy.

cheers,
Nick.
That is an interesting concept. I've been toying something like that around in my mind, and wondering why it wouldn't work.

I could pretension my jib halyard and cut it, and attach a clip at that point, then use a second halyard to raise it, and transfer to the shorter clipped line once I got it up. I have wire to line halyards so just having a second 8-12inch jumper line to clip from wire thimble to padeye, and remove the long line I used to pull it up. to lower I just reverse the process, (Don't forget), attach the longer line then unclip the holding jumper.

To further save I can use the same Halyard for all my sails, and as a backup for spinnacker, or storm sails.

I have a small sailboat so having coils of line on my deck is a problem.

Right now between two jib halyards, main, spinnacker, topping lift, and spare, My mast is a very busy place.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:06   #14
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Just a question, reading this whole thread I could not find how you would trim your halyard tension?
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:07   #15
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Re: Adding a Mast Cleat

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, tef-gel is the modern replacement. Ps, it is more about preventing galling of the metal than keeping water out. Good turnbuckles have different metals for each threaded part, like steel into bronze. Tef gel also prevents galvanic corrosion.

ciao!
Nick.
Ditto!

On my Zspar mast/boom most of the fittings are put on with National Fine SS screws and I haven't had any work loose yet. But if a screw ever did pull out, all I'd have to do is replace it with a rivet.

Although, depending on the size of the cleat (1/4" and over screw size) you may want to goto rivets.
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