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Old 29-08-2017, 23:39   #1
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Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

I have just come across Acera, an HMPE similar to dyneema. It is "manufactured in Europe" (trademarked by a Norwegian company: Wilhelmsen Ships Service AS, who own Timm ropes), but this could mean the fibres themselves are coming from China.

I have read vague comments that the Chinese stuff is low quality, but this particular line has a listed breaking strain that is the same as SK75/78, although I guess quality control may be variable. In both chandleries the assistants looked absolutely horrified when I asked if the fibres came from China, but I think it is likely this is the case. Does anyone other than DSM manufacture HMPE in Europe?

This is the data sheet for it:
http://brmnorway.no/onewebmedia/Prod...A_Amundsen.pdf

The price is the drawcard. It is 1/3 of the price of the cheapest dyneema I can find for sale in Europe.

I am planning to make a Jordan series drogue and the weight and volume in polyester is high, so using a HMPE fibre is appealing. The cost of Acera is actually significantly LESS than polyester when looking at € per kgf breaking strain.

Has anyone used this or have any comments?
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Old 30-08-2017, 11:26   #2
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

160 views, but no responses to date.
Perhaps the price will spark some interest .

This is the price for Acera including tax in the Netherlands, including the standard 10% discount with moderate purchases:

8 mm (Minimum Breaking Force = 6630 kgf)
€2.34 / m (approx USD$2.78)

10 mm (Minimum Breaking Force = 10400 kgf)
€3.60 / m (approx USD$4.28)

12 mm (Minimum Breaking Force = 14990 kgf)
€5.04 / m (approx USD$6.00)

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Old 30-08-2017, 14:49   #3
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

I haven't used them, but my thoughts:

It did strike me that it depends on what "manufactured" means. Do they buy in fibres or do they buy in raw HMPE and gel and spin it themselves?

From the data sheet, it appears that they are actually spinning and coating the yarn themselves.

Also, it seems that it is actually made by Timm in Slovakia.

Timm AS, Rope Manufacturer - Acera High Performance Solution
The rope industry has increasingly focused on high performance fiber solutions. Our aim is to change the market dynamics for these ropes. Acera™ genuine HMPE fiber is proprietary to Timm, provided exclusively through Timm and our dealer network.
...
Acera™ – the new generation HMPE fiber from Timm

The Acera™ products are made with an uncompromising commitment to the highest European quality standards, in our European factory.


WSS and Timm seem to be long established European companies with a history of rope making for marine purposes and their products are ISO certified. I'd be happy to use them.
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Old 30-08-2017, 15:44   #4
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

If you've got access to testing apparatus, such as that used for some of your other cordage endeavors, why not by some small samples & test it? And you could even ask the supplier to hold the spool from which you get your test sample pieces, perhaps via a gratuity. So that assuming the line tests well, you'll buy the whole spool. Which you kind of need that much for a drogue anyway.

One concern though, for me at least, would be the coatings on the line, & it's subsequent abrasion resistance. Not just it's strength. Given that it'll be used in a drogue, where said property is paramount. And the fact that you can't inspect it for chafe while it's in use in a drogue.

What size cordage, & how much are you needing? And what's the company's reputation like for standing behind their products? Also, you might check with vendors that supply a lot of racing boats with running rigging, & see what the feedback on it is like from them.
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Old 30-08-2017, 16:19   #5
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I haven't used them, but my thoughts:

It did strike me that it depends on what "manufactured" means. Do they buy in fibres or do they buy in raw HMPE and gel and spin it themselves?

From the data sheet, it appears that they are actually spinning and coating the yarn themselves.

Also, it seems that it is actually made by Timm in Slovakia.

Timm AS, Rope Manufacturer - Acera High Performance Solution
The rope industry has increasingly focused on high performance fiber solutions. Our aim is to change the market dynamics for these ropes. Acera™ genuine HMPE fiber is proprietary to Timm, provided exclusively through Timm and our dealer network.
...
Acera™ – the new generation HMPE fiber from Timm

The Acera™ products are made with an uncompromising commitment to the highest European quality standards, in our European factory.


WSS and Timm seem to be long established European companies with a history of rope making for marine purposes and their products are ISO certified. I'd be happy to use them.
Thanks for looking into this Stu. I value your feedback.
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Old 30-08-2017, 16:38   #6
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
If you've got access to testing apparatus, such as that used for some of your other cordage endeavors, why not by some small samples & test it? And you could even ask the supplier to hold the spool from which you get your test sample pieces, perhaps via a gratuity. So that assuming the line tests well, you'll buy the whole spool. Which you kind of need that much for a drogue anyway.
I currently have nothing I can test dyneema on. One distributor of rope has has kindly offered to organise some load testing for me. I am particularly interested in having this done on the Bullesye weave (for retaining low friction rings), but I am just super busy at the moment and this has been put on hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
One concern though, for me at least, would be the coatings on the line, & it's subsequent abrasion resistance. Not just it's strength. Given that it'll be used in a drogue, where said property is paramount. And the fact that you can't inspect it for chafe while it's in use in a drogue.
Yes, that is one of my concerns as well, although the manufacturer does stress its technique results in high chafe resistance. I think the main portion of a series drogue that is subjected to chafe is probably the bridle. This is only a relatively short length and I would make this from dyneema just to be on the safe side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
What size cordage, & how much are you needing? And what's the company's reputation like for standing behind their products? Also, you might check with vendors that supply a lot of racing boats with running rigging, & see what the feedback on it is like from them.
For a series drogue I need roughly 35 m each of 8, 10, and 12 mm if HMPE is used.

I have no idea about this company's reputation. The line is available only through fishing chandleries here. The two marine stores I bisited had never heard of Acera. The fishing stores had quite large quantities of it and said it is widely used commercially here. I would not rely on it for running rigging (it has not been manufacturered for this purpose and its creep characteristics may be poor), but given its price, for a drogue it sounds like an ideal substitute for dyneema.

I have some concerns about the use of any HMPE rope for this purpose, but I will post on one of the existing JSD threads to see if anyone that has actually deployed one of these in earnest can provide any information.

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Old 30-08-2017, 17:02   #7
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I currently have nothing I can test dyneema on. One distributor of rope has has kindly offered to organise some load testing for me. I am particularly interested in having this done on the Bullesye weave (for retaining low friction rings), but I am just super busy at the moment and this has been put on hold.
At one point weren't you testing the breaking strength of various types of soft shackles? And if so wouldn't the same equipment work for testing this stuff?

Yes, that is one of my concerns as well, although the manufacturer does stress its technique results in high chafe resistance. I think the main portion of a series drogue that is subjected to chafe is probably the bridle. This is only a relatively short length and I would make this from dyneema just to be on the safe side.
I was thinking of chafe from the perspective of the fibers within the line rubbing on one another, as the loads, & load vectors on the line changes. So that the issue could be as much of a problem for the line constituting the drogue itself, as the bridle.

For a series drogue I need roughly 35 m each of 8, 10, and 12 mm if HMPE is used.
You may need more than this, substantially so, in order to have the drogue cover 1 1/2 - 2 wavelengths. Some of which is discussed in other JSD threads. Including the one I mention below.

I have no idea about this company's reputation. The line is available only through fishing chandleries here. The two marine stores I bisited had never heard of Acera. The fishing stores had quite large quantities of it and said it is widely used commercially here. I would not rely on it for running rigging (it has not been manufacturered for this purpose and its creep characteristics may be poor), but given its price, for a drogue it sounds like an ideal substitute for dyneema.

I have some concerns about the use of any HMPE rope for this purpose, but I will post on one of the existing JSD threads to see if anyone that has actually deployed one of these in earnest can provide any information.

SWL
Quite a while back I did some posting in a JSD thread, as I'd reached the same conclusions about using Dyneema in them as you. That it's price for the equivalent breaking strength of Polyester or Nylon was pretty close to being the same. With the perk that Dyneema is MUCH lighter, especially when wet. And takes up far, far less storage room.

In the thread, I added a link to a test that the Dashews', & Beth & Evans did using a Dyneema based drogue. And as I recall, the linked article was more than worth reading. It's on Setsail.com (the Dashew's website) IIRC. I'll try & find the links. But if not, I'm sure anyone else can find them via a search also.
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Old 30-08-2017, 17:32   #8
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Quite a while back I did some posting in a JSD thread, as I'd reached the same conclusions about using Dyneema in them as you. That it's price for the equivalent breaking strength of Polyester or Nylon was pretty close to being the same. With the perk that Dyneema is MUCH lighter, especially when wet. And takes up far, far less storage room.

In the thread, I added a link to a test that the Dashews', & Beth & Evans did using a Dyneema based drogue. And as I recall, the linked article was more than worth reading. It's on Setsail.com (the Dashew's website) IIRC. I'll try & find the links. But if not, I'm sure anyone else can find them via a search also.
The price for Acera is actually less than polyester per kgf of breaking strain. By a fair margin. Combined with its low weight and volume compared to polyester, it is very appealing. Extra chain may be needed (I haven't seen this discussed), but that takes up little room and can be stored seperately.

I am in the process of reading all the threads on CF before I post my questions on making a JSD using HMPE rope. I followed your link, but it just leads to a general page on the FPB website and I haven't a chance to hunt further. If you have a direct link that would be very useful, otherwise I will go hunting later.

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Old 30-08-2017, 17:41   #9
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The price for Acera is actually less than polyester per kgf of breaking strain. By a fair margin. Combined with its low weight and volume compared to polyester, it is very appealing. Extra chain may be needed (I haven't seen this discussed), but that takes up little room and can be stored seperately.

I am in the process of reading all the threads on CF before I post my questions on making a JSD using HMPE rope. I followed your link, but it just leads to a general page on the FPB website and I haven't a chance to hunt further. If you have a direct link that would be very useful, otherwise I will go hunting later.

SWL
Here's direct links to a good bit of the information I mentioned. Though I'm sure that there's more if one digs.
Jordan Series Drogue Cone Shape?
SetSail FPB » Blog Archive » Drogue Testing
And if memory serves, Evans weighed in a couple of times on these specific issues, siting his hands on experience in the testing.
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Old 30-08-2017, 17:52   #10
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Here's direct links to a good bit of the information I mentioned. Though I'm sure that there's more if one digs.
Jordan Series Drogue Cone Shape?
SetSail FPB » Blog Archive » Drogue Testing
And if memory serves, Evans weighed in a couple of times on these specific issues, siting his hands on experience in the testing.
Many thanks for the Setsail link. That is super useful.
I found the cone shape thread, but it is handy to have these links in one spot for easy reference..

The CF thread I found particularly useful in series drogues is this one:
Jordan Series Drogue experience

This is one I haven't read in detail yet:
Jordan series Drogue Attachment

Not enough hours in the day .

The issue I am particularly concerned with is that single braid HMPE rope is not designed to be loaded in this manner. It would be good to know if any tests have been done using this fibre or if drogues made using HMPE have ever been deployed in anger. Dyneema is being used commercially by at least a couple of companies selling these series drogues, but there has been a history of mistakes being made in the past with the construction (specifically the durabilty with the use of lighweight unhemmed cones).

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Old 30-08-2017, 17:53   #11
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Regarding the text from Timm that Stu posted, the statement that "Acera genuine HMPE fiber is proprietary to Timm" does not mean that Timm manufactures the fiber. They can claim it is "proprietary" if they have a contract with the manufacturer limiting distribution to themselves. "Proprietary" can mean that Timm has a specific spec, coating formula, etc which is used in manufacturing fiber for their manufacture. The fibers can still be made elsewhere.
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Old 30-08-2017, 18:11   #12
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

The issue I am particularly concerned with is that single braid HMPE rope is not designed to be loaded in this manner.

You are referring to the loads on the cones tapes threaded thru the webbing? If so, each cone (in the normal JSD design) is lightly loaded and no problem for decent size 12 strand. There are 3 tapes per cone and you are supposed to take the tapes at least 2 passes thru the rope so the (relatively lite) load is decently well spread.

if drogues made using HMPE have ever been deployed in anger.

Yes, we have, multiple times, with no sign of any issue with the rode. I will comment that we were never in a true survival situation,
but my understanding of the engineering/loading is that should not effect the rode outcome much because we were at times at hull speed even in our less than survival situations (we often had some jib sail area up with the drogue still out either in the beginning or end of a storm). Note: there is more cyclic loading, even with the JSD design, than most people expect because of the dynamic of going down and up big waves.


Net net I would be 100% confident about loads with a (properly sized) dyneema rode. I will comment we made our bridles out of dacron because we did not want it to slip on cleats or winches. And the dyneema rode is perhaps just a little harder to pull in (because smaller diameter and more slippery) but not a huge problem.
ps - I know nothing about Acera fiber sourcing/manufacturing but they do have a decent reputation generally.
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Old 30-08-2017, 18:11   #13
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

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Regarding the text from Timm that Stu posted, the statement that "Acera genuine HMPE fiber is proprietary to Timm" does not mean that Timm manufactures the fiber. They can claim it is "proprietary" if they have a contract with the manufacturer limiting distribution to themselves. "Proprietary" can mean that Timm has a specific spec, coating formula, etc which is used in manufacturing fiber for their manufacture. The fibers can still be made elsewhere.
This is what I suspect (see post #1). I don't know of any plant manufacturing the base powder or fibres Europe, although this is an area that is rapidly altering. A product can be listed as "manufactured in xxx" without the manufacture of every component occuring there.

It may not matter though. It is probably far more critical how these fibres are processed into yarn. Also, even if it is Chinese produced, the fibres need not necessarily be inferior.

As I understand, most of DSM's dyneema fibres have actually been produced in Japan. It was actually the Japanese that came up with the first version of the name and this was slightly modified by DSM to become the "dyneema" we all know and love. This does not seem to be listed in most of the literature though.

"Made in Japan" once had the same stigma that "Made in China" now does .

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Old 30-08-2017, 18:13   #14
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Many thanks for the Setsail link. That is super useful.
I found the cone shape thread, but it is handy to have these links in one spot for easy reference..

The CF thread I found particularly useful in series drogues is this one:
Jordan Series Drogue experience

This is one I haven't read in detail yet:
Jordan series Drogue Attachment

Not enough hours in the day .

The issue I am particularly concerned with is that single braid HMPE rope is not designed to be loaded in this manner. It would be good to know if any tests have been done using this fibre or if drogues made using HMPE have ever been deployed in anger. Dyneema is being used commercially by at least a couple of companies selling these series drogues.

SWL
I've seen those other pages, but it's been quite a while since I read them. So thanks for the links. IIRC there's more on drogues over on Attainable Adventure Cruising. And you're aware of the Drogue Device Database right? Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base | Using Parachutes, Sea Anchors and Drogues to Cope with Heavy Weather – Over 130 Documented Case Histories
It has loads of after action reports from a multiplicity of vessels, & equally as many devices & techniques. Plus it's search feature is super handy.

I hear what you're saying about concerns regarding rope types for series drogues. I've read a few case stories where it was used, but nothing comes to mind right now. Though the fact that the Dashews carry a JSD built using Spectra line seems a good indicator, even if they've not used it in anger.

Also, in another, different thread on drogues, I related that on some boats, multi's especially, several different drogue types are carried. Some just for slowing the boat down while maintaining steerage towards one's destination. And another, like a JSD, for survival type conditions.
I picked up this info by reading some of the case studies/AARs on the Database (DDB).

And of course, one needs to use much heavier fabrics for the cones than was originally thought. As the loads they see during use tears up lightly built ones. Albeit due to the number of cones on a JSD there's a good bit of redundancy for if/when a few of them begin to shred. And having a much longer drogue, & also line to trail it with, than originally thought, is something which has become evident as a necessity. Especially given the wavelengths of some open ocean waves. Since they can be a lot longer than a 50m drogue can span or handle. And the ability to add extra lengths of rode to the drogue's towing line is a key tip that I recall Evans as having mentioned. Such as multiple fixed lengths of spectra linked together.


EDIT: I'm sure that the rope manufacturers like Samson, & Honeywell have data & info on real world use of Spectra/Dyneema in applications akin to JSDs. If naught else than in commercial towing. But on Samson's website alone, there are dozens of various maritime applications for their products. And in point of fact, something designed for commercial applications would likely be cheaper, & perhaps better suited for use in a JSD than is plain Spectra. So it couldn't hurt to contact them. Ditto on other folks that supply commercial maritime operators with cordage.
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Old 30-08-2017, 18:20   #15
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re: Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
You are referring to the loads on the cones tapes threaded thru the webbing? If so, each cone (in the normal JSD design) is lightly loaded and no problem for decent size 12 strand. There are 3 tapes per cone and you are supposed to take the tapes at least 2 passes thru the rope so the (relatively lite) load is decently well spread.
......

Yes, we have, multiple times, with no sign of any issue with the rode. I will comment that we were never in a true survival situation,
but my understanding of the engineering/loading is that should not effect the rode outcome much because we were at times at hull speed even in our less than survival situations (we often had some jib sail area up with the drogue still out either in the beginning or end of a storm).

Net net I would be 100% confident about loads with a (properly sized) dyneema rode. I will comment we made our bridles out of dacron because we did not want it to slip on cleats or winches. And the dyneema rode is perhaps just a little harder to pull in (because smaller diameter and more slippery) but not a huge problem........
Thanks. That is very valuable feedback.

Yes, it was the effect of the load on the cone tapes that I was uncertain of. Is the insertion of the tapes staggered? The load primarily seems to be on the point that the tape (with the stopper knot) emerges from the line.

Did you use extra weight at the end to compensate for the fact that the dyneema floats, instead of sinking as polyester does?

SWL
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