Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-10-2015, 14:18   #241
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 41
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

When testing front opening refrigeration one must speculate on the number of door openings per day and the amount of humidity that incrementally builds a 32 degree barrier on the evaporator, effectively insulating what should be a -10 to 0 degree evaporator surface. Running times increase significantly after only a few days of icing until you shut down and defrost again.

Secondly, short running times are inefficient on several levels but most importantly is the inductive start coupled with the time it takes to develop the differential R134 pressures for the cycle to start again. The most efficient compressor is the one that runs continuously at the slowest RPM to maintain set point, only a certain percentage of boxes will have this balance point and that's assuming you manually dial in the RPM for seasonal adjustments. This requires opening up the factory 3 degree default on temperature differential.
__________________

__________________
bobw100ton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 16:09   #242
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I think it's not how fast amperes are flowing but how many electrons are flowing.
The speed of the electrons in a wire (which in any case is very very slow) would be a function of current density in the wire. 100 amperes though 00 wire and the wire is cool and the flow rate slower then 100 amperes through say a 10 gauge wire.

Ampere speed at say 100 amps would be different in different wire sizes and in different wire material. That is 100 amps moves through a copper conducter slower then in a aluminum conductor.

So an ampere can't be a unit of speed when that speed changes with wire size.

For folks who want a bit more detail, see this Speed of electricity flow (speed of current.)

You think wrong.
It's not electrons, it's units of electrical charge moving through the wire.
I won't go into the physics of what a "unit of electrical charge" is. But it's not the same as an electron.

And once more amperes don't "flow", get used or get stored - they are not a physical entity any more than a gallon per minute is.

Given that, the rest of the post is meaningless.
__________________

__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 16:16   #243
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post


In that case: How many GPM does a standard fuel can hold? That would depend on the size of the fuel can and the GPM flow rate.
OK, I'll ask it again. In a slightly different way.

Remeber, we are responding to your statement that "GPH IS volume". You should be able to answer with a simple number if that is true:

How many GPH does a 20 liter jerrycan hold?
and
How many GPH does your fuel tank hold?

Quote:
At last: you almost get the analogy! GPM is analogous to Amp. gallons per minute would be analogous to Ampere per minute.


Oh dear, I really thought you got it for a minute.
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 16:20   #244
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,051
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobw100ton View Post
When testing front opening refrigeration one must speculate on the number of door openings per day and the amount of humidity that incrementally builds a 32 degree barrier on the evaporator, effectively insulating what should be a -10 to 0 degree evaporator surface. Running times increase significantly after only a few days of icing until you shut down and defrost again.

Secondly, short running times are inefficient on several levels but most importantly is the inductive start coupled with the time it takes to develop the differential R134 pressures for the cycle to start again. The most efficient compressor is the one that runs continuously at the slowest RPM to maintain set point, only a certain percentage of boxes will have this balance point and that's assuming you manually dial in the RPM for seasonal adjustments. This requires opening up the factory 3 degree default on temperature differential.
You are making sense. I don't think a vertical door makes any sense to begin with, on the hard who cares the meter goes around and then it goes around again with the AC to get rid of the heat. But needing to defrost is a real concern on whatever. Iced over is a waste. Hell, heat pumps have a reverse cycle on shut down.

I just can't see people thinking there is a great HVAC invention that big industry has missed. If so they should patent it, not BS about it and misadvise someone to chop on refrigeration lines.

Lets see what do I recharge with, is it buyable, R what? How do I pull a vacuum first?

Seems like a fools errand.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:09   #245
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
An ampere hour is the amount of energy charge in a battery that will allow one ampere of current to flow for one hour.
Let's re-phrase that:

An Ampere hour is the amount of energy charge in a battery that will allow an electrical charge to flow at a rate of one ampere for one hour.

There is a subtle but critical difference between those two statements.

Let's see if I can put it into sailor talk.

Electrical current is just like ocean or tidal current.

Suppose you have a current of one knot (Nm/hr) through a reef passage out of a harbour, the current itself doesn't "move" and you can't put any of that current into a bucket(storage device). What moves is a volume of water (gallons, cubic meters or whatever) at a rate of one knot(NM/hr) and you can put some of those gallons or cubic meters into a bucket.

It's just the same with electricity.

Suppose you have a current of one Amp (Coulomb/sec) through a wire out of a power source, the current itself doesn't "move" and you can't put any of that current into a battery(storage device). What moves is a quantity of electricity (Coulombs, Watt Hrs or whatever) at a rate of one Amp (Coulomb/sec) and you can put some of those Coulombs or Watt Hours into a battery.

Note: if you are talking about a constant voltage, you can simplify Watt hours to Amp Hours in the second example since Ah = Wh/V

Bottom line: "counting amps going into a battery" is like 'counting knots going through a reef passage into a harbour".
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:13   #246
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You think wrong.
It's not electrons, it's units of electrical charge moving through the wire.
I won't go into the physics of what a "unit of electrical charge" is. But it's not the same as an electron.

And once more amperes don't "flow", get used or get stored - they are not a physical entity any more than a gallon per minute is.

Given that, the rest of the post is meaningless.
Oh Dear me, A very quick search on the internet returns the following:

CURRENT: denoted by I and measured in amperes. Current flows from negatively charged material to positively charged material and is essentially the number of electrons per second that are carried through a conductor. Current is measured in units of amps. 1 amp = 1 coloumb/sec = 6.2 x 1018 electrons per second!



Huh. Looks like to me, Ampere's are electrons. Though they could be other charged particles too, I guess.


Notice where is says current flows from negative to positive. It's not about speed but numbers of electrons. We use Amperes as counting electrons gets tiring after a while.



To your other question,



How many GPH does a 20 liter jerrycan hold? Somewhere between 0 and 4.45 ish.


GPH is a volumetric unit as in that pipe is flowing 20 gph, it's not a unit of speed. It's a physical unit as you can put a 5 gallon bucket under a spigot and calculate gpm from the time it takes to fill the bucket.



I beginning to suspect that you might be living in a alternate universe, where the basic laws of nature are different. It's easy enough to google basic units of measure. Perhaps you can post something from google that says GPM or GPH is a unit of speed or that amperes are a unit of speed.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:23   #247
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Let's re-phrase that:

An Ampere hour is the amount of energy charge in a battery that will allow an electrical charge to flow at a rate of one ampere for one hour.

There is a subtle but critical difference between those two statements.

Let's see if I can put it into sailor talk.

Electrical current is just like ocean or tidal current.

Suppose you have a current of one knot (Nm/hr) through a reef passage out of a harbour, the current itself doesn't "move" and you can't put any of that current into a bucket(storage device). What moves is a volume of water (gallons, cubic meters or whatever) at a rate of one knot(NM/hr) and you can put some of those gallons or cubic meters into a bucket.

It's just the same with electricity.

Suppose you have a current of one Amp (Coulomb/sec) through a wire out of a power source, the current itself doesn't "move" and you can't put any of that current into a battery(storage device). What moves is a quantity of electricity (Coulombs, Watt Hrs or whatever) at a rate of one Amp (Coulomb/sec) and you can put some of those Coulombs or Watt Hours into a battery.

Note: if you are talking about a constant voltage, you can simplify Watt hours to Amp Hours in the second example since Ah = Wh/V

Bottom line: "counting amps going into a battery" is like 'counting knots going through a reef passage into a harbour".
Actually if you read the electrical and physic's books, amperes measure the rate of electron flow.

As every sailor knows a current in a stream or river or tidal current is actually water flowing, physically moving. Now waves are different, they are a pressure passing through the water. But current, as in river or tidal current is real physical water moving. Least when my boat runs through it.

Lets be clear current is simply water moving, If the water does not flow there isn't current. Speed of the current is knots, and your right we can't put the speed of the current in a bucket.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:30   #248
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,051
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Oh Dear me, A very quick search on the internet returns the following:

CURRENT: denoted by I and measured in amperes. Current flows from negatively charged material to positively charged material and is essentially the number of electrons per second that are carried through a conductor. Current is measured in units of amps. 1 amp = 1 coloumb/sec = 6.2 x 1018 electrons per second!



Huh. Looks like to me, Ampere's are electrons. Though they could be other charged particles too, I guess.


Notice where is says current flows from negative to positive. It's not about speed but numbers of electrons. We use Amperes as counting electrons gets tiring after a while.



To your other question,



How many GPH does a 20 liter jerrycan hold? Somewhere between 0 and 4.45 ish.


GPH is a volumetric unit as in that pipe is flowing 20 gph, it's not a unit of speed. It's a physical unit as you can put a 5 gallon bucket under a spigot and calculate gpm from the time it takes to fill the bucket.



I beginning to suspect that you might be living in a alternate universe, where the basic laws of nature are different. It's easy enough to google basic units of measure. Perhaps you can post something from google that says GPM or GPH is a unit of speed or that amperes are a unit of speed.
I love the alternate universe and googling units.

Sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

You stopped me from being crass.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:39   #249
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I love the alternate universe and googling units.

Sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

You stopped me from being crass.
It's really the only thing I came up with, because its quite easy to do a tiny bit of research on the web. I'm thinking I'm just about done here.. It's been fun though. I think we deserve an award for the biggest thread drift ever on Cruisers Forum.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:40   #250
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Oh Dear me, A very quick search on the internet returns the following:

1 amp = 1 coloumb/sec = 6.2 x 1018 electrons per second!
...
Huh. Looks like to me, Ampere's are electrons. Though they could be other charged particles too, I guess.
But that quite clearly says that Ampere's are "electrons per second", not electrons.

If you can't even grasp that fundamental difference, I fear there is no hope of you ever understanding and there is no point in discussing all the other errors in your post.
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:44   #251
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Lets be clear current is simply water moving, If the water does not flow there isn't current. Speed of the current is knots, and your right we can't put the speed of the current in a bucket.
And in exactly the same way: Speed of the current is Amps, and you can't put the speed of the current in a battery.

Which takes us right back to where we started.
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 17:59   #252
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,705
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Perhaps you can post something from google that says GPM or GPH is a unit of speed or that amperes are a unit of speed.
Since you ask so nicely:
Speed | Definition of speed by Merriam-Webster

"the rate at which something happens or is done"

Speed | Define Speed at Dictionary.com
"rapidity in moving, going, traveling, proceeding, or performing"; (emphasis added)

speed - definition of speed in English from the Oxford dictionary
The rate at which something happens or is done: they were bemused by the speed of events the course is delivered on CDROM so students can progress at their own speed

Note that in all of these definitions, there is no specification of distance.

Speed of motion is just one type of speed, not the only one.

Knot = speed of motion.
GPH = speed of liquid flow
Amp = speed of electricity flow.
Words per minute = typing speed
Pages per minute = speed of reading

etc, etc ad infinitum.

Maybe you need to broaden your universe
__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 18:00   #253
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
But that quite clearly says that Ampere's are "electrons per second", not electrons.

If you can't even grasp that fundamental difference, I fear there is no hope of you ever understanding and there is no point in discussing all the other errors in your post.
I am in awe.

So 1 ampere is 6.2 x 10^18 electrons traveling in a wire per second, but they are not electrons. Dude, its electrons traveling through a conductor. They interact with a amp meter.

Of course it's electrons. It's not an imaginary number. It's real physical quantum electrons flowing in a wire. Actually is electron exchange flowing from one conductor atom to the next, on and on.

That is what Coulombs and Amperes are. It's not magic or smoke and mirrors.

Your not a English major are you.

1 ampere hour is 2.232x10^22 electrons or 6.2 x 10^18 electrons per second for one hour. What else can it be. It's not magic or smoke and mirrors.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 18:04   #254
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
And in exactly the same way: Speed of the current is Amps, and you can't put the speed of the current in a battery.

Which takes us right back to where we started.
Stu, Please post a link to a paper or electrical text that defines an amp as Speed of the current.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 18:12   #255
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Why no Residential Fridges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post

GPH = speed of liquid flow
Amp = speed of electricity flow.
Please post a link to a page or paper that supports this. This is so not right. I can't understand how you came to believe that GPH was a measurement of speed and not volume. There isn't a single textbook that supports that.
__________________

__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted: Residential Mooring (UK) Genzzry Liveaboard's Forum 12 06-10-2015 12:46
Longish residential sailing course wanted woodyapex General Sailing Forum 12 13-05-2015 23:06
Difference Between Residential and Marine AC Circuit Panels ? albergsailor Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 8 21-09-2011 13:56
Residential Canals in South FL j0n Atlantic & the Caribbean 21 24-02-2011 06:31
Residential Stainless Steel Sinks? Extemporaneous Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 17 03-05-2009 16:15



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.