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Old 23-04-2013, 20:01   #451
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
The old definition of Cruising, "Nothing more than boat work in exotic places"

I like that, may make it the theme of the next few years LOL!
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Old 23-04-2013, 20:06   #452
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The old definition of Cruising, "Nothing more than boat work in exotic places"
Yup, Ive been back in Panama for almost a month now...at the dock..."living the dream"....working on the f*ing boat in Paradise! Have not even gotten in the water yet...except to clean the bottom. Quite a few other cruisers here doing the same thing.

One of my tasks was to replace the Clarkson pump on my Spectra Catalina 300. After almost 10 years it was time to just swap it out for a rebuilt one. Replaced the original membrane just last year (9 years). So cant complain about the service life of either. As always excellent tech support from Spectra.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:45   #453
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

A friend of mine down the dock was working on his boat and he comented how he wasn't being paid for the work he was doing. I pointed out that the option would be to work alot harder at a far less satisfing job to make the money to pay someone else to do the work for him. He would also miss out on putting work into something he loves, learning how to maintain his boat and gaining an intimate knowledge of his boat.
Something about our culture makes people feel better if they can pay someone to do work for them (even if they have to work harder to make the money to pay "the help"). This is rooted back in the days when the affluent wealthy had servants and people are doing their best to emulate that. This is also the reason for excessively big houses, useless stuff, the need for the "latest greatest" etc
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Old 24-04-2013, 14:11   #454
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Bernard Stamm, Vendee Globe participant has just been disqualified. First his redundant hydro generators failed (both of them). He went to anchor in the Auckland islands and 40 kt winds caused his anchor to drag almost putting him into a Russian research vessel that had anchored near him at night. While trying to get ready to move his boat a Russian crew member boarded his boat and hauled in the anchor. Stamm then tied up to the research vessel. The next day he moved and made his repairs. He had less than 2 liters of water when he anchored in the Aucklands. Yep, stuff does happen out there...

His boat was probably one of the better prepared boats in the Vendee Globe.
Except that he wasnt.

He had the hydro generators installed so that they wouldn't tilt up if they hit an object (among other things) - my bold:

Quote:
“Bernard Stamm started the Vendée Globe on the wrong foot because he started having problems with his hydrogenerators as early as off the coast of Portugal. Months before the start of the Vendée Globe he already encountered problems with one of them because it was flooded by water as a result of not being properly mounted. Finally, before the start of the race, the manufacturer of his hydrogenerators sent a letter stating the warranty was not valid any longer because the Cheminées Poujoulat team had altered them in their entirety.”
Some genius at the Cheminées Poujoulat shore crew decided to modify the hydrogenerators purchased from Watt & Sea so that they produced more electricity. In addition, they designed a mount that was contrary to the installation recommended by the manufacturer.”
“It is difficult to assess the modifications carried out by the internal technical team of Cheminées Poujoulat due to the lack of technical data, although the work carried out has not been very effective. But what is more incoherent is the mount they devised for the hydrogenerators at the transom of the Open 60.






The modified Watt & Sea hydrogenerators onboard Cheminées Poujoulat. Mounted on two fixed points, they can’t swing when hitting a floating object and if the impact is strong enough they will break


“The right way is that the hydrogenerator can be retracted by swinging about a pivot point. The Cheminées Poujoulat technicians devised a mount that allows the hydrogenerator to be lifted and lowered vertically. However, once the hydrogenerator is immersed, a sudden collision with an unidentified floating object will always strike directly against the hydrogenerator and since it is unable to swing, it either resists the impact or it flies away, the way it happened yesterday to Bernard Stamm.
The correct way to mount the Watt & Sea hyrdrogenerators. Fixed on a single pivot point, they retract when they collide with a floating object

Bernard has sailed halfway around the world suffering from hydrogenerator breakdowns. And curiously, when he stopped south of New Zealand, he didn’t think about devising a different way to mount the hydrogenerators and avoid suffering the same consequences.
But the obsession with weight has led Bernard to commit more mistakes, although he’s not the only one making them in this regard. He doesn’t carry aboard a third spare hydrogenerator nor does he have any spare parts to repair the ones he has on board. In addition, he carried less fuel, thinking that the hydrogenerators would not have any problem charging the batteries to the maximum, which is true as long as they work properly. He now finds himself desperate.”
Well, I just thought it was interesting just why his hydrogenerators failed.

From here:

Bernard Stamm’s hydrogenerator problems date from months before Vendée Globe | VSail.info
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Old 20-01-2014, 11:03   #455
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Carsten,

Did you get a watermaker? If so, what did you choose and more importantly where did you fit it on your SF40?
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Old 20-01-2014, 13:18   #456
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Carsten,

Did you get a watermaker? If so, what did you choose and more importantly where did you fit it on your SF40?
hi hoppy,

I'm getting ready to buy now. I'm closing in on the brand. Watermakers are a deep black box. Everyone has a favorite and no-one seems to be able to give a real answer as to why theirs is best (or cheapest :-) )

Anyway, a friend is at Dusseldorf boat show checking out all the brands. We'll both buy when he gets back.

Installing it? Gonna be a bitch :-) Ain't life as a boatie fun?



I'll let you all know exactly what we buy when we do
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Old 20-01-2014, 13:19   #457
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Carsten,

Did you get a watermaker? If so, what did you choose and more importantly where did you fit it on your SF40?
I just realized you have an SO 40 so your possible installation places are the same as mine. Mine is a 2 cabin - what's yours?
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Old 20-01-2014, 13:30   #458
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

I have the 3 cabin.

I was earlier watching the safety inspection video on the ARC site and they briefly showed what looked like a Schenker unit mounted in the bilge of a SO39i which got me thinking of this thread.

I have been thinking that if I ever get a WM I might mount it partly in the locker where the water heater is and the adjacent one.
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Old 20-01-2014, 15:01   #459
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Watermakers are a deep black box. Everyone has a favorite and no-one seems to be able to give a real answer as to why theirs is best (or cheapest :-) )
The Water Maker Black Magic is exactly what we try to get rid of because when you strip away all the electronic controls, proprietary parts and "ours is special" BS, a water maker is a simple plumbing project.

Sure some parts of the water maker operate at high pressure but that isn't rocket science. Both the energy efficient Clark pump used on a spectra or a brute strength piston pump used on most high output water makers like our units bring the sea water to about 800PSI to drive water molecules through the same RO Membrane. All the prefiltering, fresh water flushing, and pickling is just support for where the Magic happens, the RO Membrane.

Some water makers can be contorled over the internet with your Iphone or Ipad while others put the user through the horror of having to manually turn 3-way valves or a pressure regulating valve. Of couse you can guess the price difference of the two approaches (along with the frequency of break down).

I'm a KISS type of cruiser/water maker builder because I know I can fix a water maker plumbing project about anywhere in the world and so can one of our clients. So that's the angle I approach things with when I'm helping clients walk through the "which water maker question".

Bottom line in my opinion is that if you want a 12v water maker, then you have to go with the most energy efficient, which is Spectra or you defeat the point of staying with 12v. If you have a generator then it's an easy choice to go with a 120v AC high output water maker, like our 20 or 30 gallons per hour water maker and run it a few times a week when charging batteries. Despite the sales job, there really isn't a "wrong decision" but just what approach works best for your boat, your cruising style, Budget and water usage.
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Old 20-01-2014, 17:02   #460
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

If you are running the Honda for water why have a 13.5 amp 12v pump in the mix?

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Old 20-01-2014, 17:19   #461
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
If you are running the Honda for water why have a 13.5 amp 12v pump in the mix?
A couple of reasons, but the main one being ease of fresh water flushing and pickling. With the 12v boost pump you can do a quick fresh water flush or pickle without having to start your AC generator. For folks with the honda this saves them the work of pullling out their Honda just for a 2 minute fresh water flush. Of course with an inverter you could also do a quick fresh water flush using an AC pump powered through the inverter. If you are using the Honda 2000 to run the water maker, you can also charge the batteries at the same time as making water....so yes you are using DC 12v power, but you are also putting more back into the battery bank than you are taking out.

Another reason comes down to ease of installation with a self-priming boost pump. The AC boost pumps are centrifugal and are not self priming so they need to be mounted below the water line. The 12v impeller pump we use is self priming so the mounting can be above the water line, which we have found makes the installation much easier for a lot of DIY installations. We do have a 5A DC centrifugal pump we can use for those who can get it below the water line, but that is just hard for lots of folks.

Then you have the issue of cost. We can supply a unit with a 120V AC boost pump, but it adds $175 to cover our increased cost of the pump or more depending on your pump selection.

The No 1 problem or issue people have with high output water makers is getting enough flow rate (min of 2 GPM) pushed through their prefilters and into the Hp pump. It's often where a lot of DIY water maker projects fail because if you read the pump manufacturers data...well I don't want to say they LIE, but as soon as you get any head pressure or suction on a boost pump, most of them fail to come anywhere close to their sales job specs. We literally have piles of boost pumps that on paper should have worked, but once installed and tested couldn't deliver the needed 2.0GPM to the Hp pump. And when you starve a Hp piston pump for sea water flow, you cause cavitation and either Membrane DEATH or long term pump death.

On my boat, where maybe "cost" isn't as big an issue since I own the company and can just grab one off the shelf without my business partner seeing () I have and like the 12v pump just for the easy of doing a quick fresh water flush if I'm not going to run the water maker for more than 7 days. I know Mark on SV Reach doesn't like the 12v boost pump and would rather have those 13.5A DC going into the battery bank when running his generator to make power and he makes a damn compelling argument as to why we should supply the unit with a AC boost pump rather than our 12v DC unit. Which is why we have the AC unit as option and he went that way with his installation.
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Old 20-01-2014, 17:50   #462
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
A couple of reasons, but the main one being ease of fresh water flushing and pickling. With the 12v boost pump you can do a quick fresh water flush or pickle without having to start your AC generator. For folks with the honda this saves them the work of pullling out their Honda just for a 2 minute fresh water flush. Of course with an inverter you could also do a quick fresh water flush using an AC pump powered through the inverter. If you are using the Honda 2000 to run the water maker, you can also charge the batteries at the same time as making water....so yes you are using DC 12v power, but you are also putting more back into the battery bank than you are taking out.

Another reason comes down to ease of installation with a self-priming boost pump. The AC boost pumps are centrifugal and are not self priming so they need to be mounted below the water line. The 12v impeller pump we use is self priming so the mounting can be above the water line, which we have found makes the installation much easier for a lot of DIY installations. We do have a 5A DC centrifugal pump we can use for those who can get it below the water line, but that is just hard for lots of folks.

Then you have the issue of cost. We can supply a unit with a 120V AC boost pump, but it adds $175 to cover our increased cost of the pump or more depending on your pump selection.

The No 1 problem or issue people have with high output water makers is getting enough flow rate (min of 2 GPM) pushed through their prefilters and into the Hp pump. It's often where a lot of DIY water maker projects fail because if you read the pump manufacturers data...well I don't want to say they LIE, but as soon as you get any head pressure or suction on a boost pump, most of them fail to come anywhere close to their sales job specs. We literally have piles of boost pumps that on paper should have worked, but once installed and tested couldn't deliver the needed 2.0GPM to the Hp pump. And when you starve a Hp piston pump for sea water flow, you cause cavitation and either Membrane DEATH or long term pump death.

On my boat, where maybe "cost" isn't as big an issue since I own the company and can just grab one off the shelf without my business partner seeing () I have and like the 12v pump just for the easy of doing a quick fresh water flush if I'm not going to run the water maker for more than 7 days. I know Mark on SV Reach doesn't like the 12v boost pump and would rather have those 13.5A DC going into the battery bank when running his generator to make power and he makes a damn compelling argument as to why we should supply the unit with a AC boost pump rather than our 12v DC unit. Which is why we have the AC unit as option and he went that way with his installation.
Thank you for the information. I understand more now.
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Old 21-01-2014, 00:40   #463
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I have the 3 cabin.

I was earlier watching the safety inspection video on the ARC site and they briefly showed what looked like a Schenker unit mounted in the bilge of a SO39i which got me thinking of this thread.

I have been thinking that if I ever get a WM I might mount it partly in the locker where the water heater is and the adjacent one.
With the 2 cabin, I have a storage spec behind the head, which would seem logical (1 water tank is back there also), but this would be a bitch of place to have to service anything. Besides, the other water tank (and filling cap) is up front.

I've looked at mounting it in the space you suggest, which looks right. All the water fixtures are there, meaning you can get at lines to either tank.

An alternative might be under the floorboards, where the cooling water">engine cooling water comes in. That's a pretty big space, only problem might de depth.

A friend of mine is at Dusseldorf boat, spending time only looking at water makers (he needs one for his XC45), When he gets back later this week, I'll pick his brain and we'll buy 2 at the same time to get the pricing down
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Old 21-01-2014, 00:46   #464
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
The Water Maker Black Magic is exactly what we try to get rid of because when you strip away all the electronic controls, proprietary parts and "ours is special" BS, a water maker is a simple plumbing project.

Sure some parts of the water maker operate at high pressure but that isn't rocket science. Both the energy efficient Clark pump used on a spectra or a brute strength piston pump used on most high output water makers like our units bring the sea water to about 800PSI to drive water molecules through the same RO Membrane. All the prefiltering, fresh water flushing, and pickling is just support for where the Magic happens, the RO Membrane.

Some water makers can be contorled over the internet with your Iphone or Ipad while others put the user through the horror of having to manually turn 3-way valves or a pressure regulating valve. Of couse you can guess the price difference of the two approaches (along with the frequency of break down).

I'm a KISS type of cruiser/water maker builder because I know I can fix a water maker plumbing project about anywhere in the world and so can one of our clients. So that's the angle I approach things with when I'm helping clients walk through the "which water maker question".

Bottom line in my opinion is that if you want a 12v water maker, then you have to go with the most energy efficient, which is Spectra or you defeat the point of staying with 12v. If you have a generator then it's an easy choice to go with a 120v AC high output water maker, like our 20 or 30 gallons per hour water maker and run it a few times a week when charging batteries. Despite the sales job, there really isn't a "wrong decision" but just what approach works best for your boat, your cruising style, Budget and water usage.
Rich - thanks for this. I've spent the better part of year researching water makers and I reached the same conclusion. The key to a 12V system is "how many amps do you use to produce 1 liter (gallon) of water. Including boost pumps, which are necessary on virtually any modern production boat because they have a flat bottom. you simply can't mount the high pressure pump under the water line.

Spectra is low usage, so are some others.
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Old 21-01-2014, 05:39   #465
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Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

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Rich - thanks for this. I've spent the better part of year researching water makers and I reached the same conclusion. The key to a 12V system is "how many amps do you use to produce 1 liter (gallon) of water. Including boost pumps, which are necessary on virtually any modern production boat because they have a flat bottom. you simply can't mount the high pressure pump under the water line.

Spectra is low usage, so are some others.
For 12v operation you really have to have energy recovery. Otherwise it really doesn't add up.

Dave
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