Which Watermaker To Choose

[senormechanico]

You can buy Sodium Metabisulfite at any DIY wine and beer shop.

Steve

[NorthPacific]

Thank you John and Steve

[MTang]

I work with RO water treatment for a living here in the Virgin Islands. I've worked on small systems (Foxy's, Scrub Island, Anegada, etc.) and now work on large 1-3 MGD systems (WAPA). Been doing this work since I graduated college 8 years ago. I'm curious how these smaller systems for boats compare to the larger ones and what is so difficult on the installs.

I also like to think that after doing this type of work for so long (and sometimes on islands with limited tools and parts) that my my electrical skills, troubleshooting skills, maintenance, and overall systems engineering will translate well when I'm ready to cruise full time. Between the high pressure, seawater and brine, it is a constant battle of corrosion and leaks. I will say that the Titanium is where its at for resistance to corrosion (maybe someone should build a boat with it). Whatever they say about super duplex not corroding is false.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by NorthPacific

Hi Gang,

I have a new to me KAt 40e. I saw a post on using beer cleaning solution instead of the very expensive Kat product. Anyone remember seeing the post and if so what the chemical is called.

This is where the Internet Chat Room advice can come back to bit you in the Stern! We use the Standard Sodium Metabisulfite preservative as do many water maker companies...BUT there are water maker pumps and equipment out there that will be DAMAGED by the Sodum Metabisulfite preservative and the Kat 40e is one of them and will VOID your Warranty.

[John Galt]

While I haven't had the need to pickle my membrane as of yet, I have a baggie of
MBS on board.

I'd be interested in seeing the source of your comment about voiding the warranty.

Page 31 of the Katadyn 80E owners manual contains the warranty. Nothing is mentioned about which agent to use and in fact page 13 on membrane storage doesn't either.

Wikipedia states MBS is used with
RO systems.

While I'm pretty sure my warranty is a thing of the past, I'd like to avoid damaging any components should I need to park the boat.

Thanks!

[Tellie]

Rich is right. While Sodium Metabisulfite is used on many watermaker systems there are those that Sodium Metabisulfite will damage. The damage occurs not in the membrane but in other systems components. While Sodium Metabisulfite is cheap, watermakers are not. Always check with the manufacturer if you are not sure. Personally I prefer Propylene Glycol -100 for a better pickling solution. It's easier on the membrane and it helps keep the systems internal O-rings, valves, etc. more supple and protected. You can go well over a year without re-pickling the system.
For anything Katadyn related, 40e or 80, shoot off a message to board member ishipaco. He's the Katadyn expert.

[John Galt]

Thanks Tellie, I had a feeling Rich knew what he was talking about. He's in the business!
And I'm a customer of his. Love my 80e and don't need to sabotage it!

[NorthPacific]

This is from Ishipacos site. Sad loosing his boat but great guy to share information and advice. (I installed using his site)
The chemical used as a biocide in the original PUR—and the early issues of Katadyn—watermakers was sodium metabisulfite. It works as an antioxidant, which means it has the ability to absorb oxygen from its environment. When a solution of sodium metabisulfite is pumped through the membrane, it removes the oxygen inside the membrane. Since the bacteria are aerobic, and need oxygen to live, they are killed when subjected to such a solution. Sodium metabisulfite is commonly used as an anti-bacterial agent in restaurants and the wine industry.
Several years ago, Katadyn changed their biocide chemical. I have no reason to believe that the new chemical is not just as effective as the original sodium metabisulfite. Perhaps it is even more effective. Unfortunately, I've not been able to learn exactly what its chemical composition is or how it works. It is my understanding that the change was made for ergonomic reasons. Sodium metabisulfite can irritate mucous membranes. Apparently the new chemical doesn't do that and is, therefore, more "user friendly." On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that the original sodium metabisulfite is not still perfectly effective. If you have a source for it, don't hesitate for a moment to use it.

Tink I will ris\k the mucus membranes :-)

[YADO]

Tellie,
Spectra questions: DC vs AC, 18gph vs 29 gph, single membrane vs. double membrane and lastly, the cost.
Cost-Dealing with the cost, when buying a catamaran costing over $800k I think the water system could be considered an important part of maintaining the boat exterior. That's a lot of stainless to keep up with.
Single vs double membrane: If one fails the other continues to work, though I'm told they don't fail suddenly, but over time, if you use a pre-filter to keep out chlorine.
Output: Keeping the boat clean can be an important part of maintaining the investment, in addition to regular usage. I think most could get by with 18gph watermaker but add in the need-for-clean when unplugged, I think the few thousand dollars of additional costs on an expensive boat might be worth it.
DC vs AC: This inverter/charger, genset and battery issue is the most perplexing.

Leopard 46 and Spectra: It occurred to me that there are over 160 Leopard 46 catamarans out there which were specked out with a Spectra Newport 400 or smaller, with less than 18gph water makers installed.

Has anyone met a Leopard 46 owner that wished he had a larger watermaker? That's a good pool of users to question.

Tellie, any thoughts?
Thanks
Yado

[settingsun]

YADO - Our Echotech engine-driven 60 gallon per hour (rated as 38 but with higher quality membranes now runs at 60) cost $7,000 in 2010, including shipping and all spare parts. I believe the price now is similar or possibly less than it was then...

That's the same (or less) as many much smaller DC systems and was worth every penny.

The pre-filters don't filter out chlorine. They only filter out particulates of 20 microns and 5 microns. If you make water in an area with lots of diesel or chlorine in the water, your membranes will be toast (I know of 2 boats whose membranes failed at the Las Hadas Resort anchorage in Manzanillo, Mexico, a huge industrial port filled with tankers from overseas).

The filter in most systems that filters out chlorine is actually on the back-flush side of the system. It is there so that if you have chlorinated water in your holding tank (from a marina) it doesn't destroy your membranes when you back-flush.

Back-flushing is optional, however. We never back-flush and have left our boat for anywhere from a month to 7 months in very hot tropical areas. Our TDS readings are always between 75 and 95. After leaving the boat for 7 months in 95 degree humid conditions, the first time we made water the TDS reading was 95.

Our membranes did fail in the first few months of use, and they failed over time. The readings began to climb, and after 2 months the readings were over 1200 (not drinkable). They were under warranty, and we were upset, so they were replaced with very high quality membranes (which is why we have gotten 60 gallons per hour ever since then, instead of the rated 38).

I believe the original membranes were faulty to begin with (the readings climbed right from the get-go). The manufacturer thought they were Dow membranes, but when we removed them they were discontinued ones from some Italian manufacturer... our replacement membranes are Dow.

I can't stress enough the importance of a big watermaker. Our boat cost a fraction of $800k, but our lives have been immeasurably improved by being able to keep everything sparkling clean.

We spent 5 straight months at anchor without going into a marina, and the boat was as fresh and clean at the end of 5 months as it was at the beginning.

Lots of our friends wash themselves and their dishes with liquid soap and then dribble a little water to rinse off. We let the water run like we would in a house. It does something for your morale to be able to live comfortably.

Also, it's nice to be able to fill the holding tanks in an hour or 2 and then resume sailing or playing or whatever. Friends of ours spend hours and hours and hours with the watermaker running...

If you are going to spend $7k on a watermaker, why not get the biggest one you can find for the money??

[engele]

Another advantage of Echotec is that they do use standard membranes and you can get them abroad if you need them. They are a quality and customer service focused company. Worth a look.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by MTang

I work with RO water treatment for a living here in the Virgin Islands. I've worked on small systems (Foxy's, Scrub Island, Anegada, etc.) and now work on large 1-3 MGD systems (WAPA). Been doing this work since I graduated college 8 years ago. I'm curious how these smaller systems for boats compare to the larger ones and what is so difficult on the installs.

I also like to think that after doing this type of work for so long (and sometimes on islands with limited tools and parts) that my my electrical skills, troubleshooting skills, maintenance, and overall systems engineering will translate well when I'm ready to cruise full time. Between the high pressure, seawater and brine, it is a constant battle of corrosion and leaks. I will say that the Titanium is where its at for resistance to corrosion (maybe someone should build a boat with it). Whatever they say about super duplex not corroding is false.

I don't think there is anything difficult with the installs, it's just like alot of stuff in the marine industry. People who have more money than time are convinced they have to pay through the nose for a "professional". Just because a professional charges an incredible amount of money to do something doesn't mean that anyone can't do it themself using only the instruction manual as a knowledge base (a call to the handy-dandy tech support # will provide answers from any reputable manufacturer).
To add to that an economy that is support by the thought that has been inbred into the populous to buy the biggest/fanciest/latest/greatest thing someone can afford.
Why should I spend $7000 on a water maker when for the same price I can get a perfectly acceptable water maker ($2000), a SSB, a new mainsail an EPIRB and have change left over.

Our entire culture in recent years has tried very hard (and successfully I must add) to replace self-sufficiency, creativity, inventiveness etc with a reliance on some one else to install, repair of construct (as per the suggestion of the marketing industry). Some where I have a book published in 1967 "Ocean Voyaging" and somewhere in the beginning it says "All systems on a boat will at sometime fail, every cruisng sailor should know how to, have the tools at parts to repair this system with out help from the outside world" (slightly para-phrased). My father was an "old school sailor", I grew up on a farm and am too poor to hire someone for something I can do myself.

[Tellie]

Tellie, any thoughts?
Thanks
Yado[/QUOTE]


Those are a lot of questions to answer all at once. If we were to sit across from each other with a few beers I could take a couple of hours giving you the answers and covering all the reasons why I gave the answers I did. If I sat down with someone else the answers might be the similar but the reasons why I gave them would be different. I've done exactly that many, many, times. A lot of the time people want to pigeon hole the basic question "Which watermaker should I get?" I've said it many, many, times before and I still believe it. There is no one watermaker that fits everyone. It's the Goldilocks approach, you need to find one that's just right for you, not your dock buddy. For everyone that tells you that their system is the greatest I can guarantee you I've run into others that think it's a piece of ..... Where you really need to begin is with someone you can build a trust with that will take the time needed to guide you through the right questions to ask and help guide you into what you really need. That being said, and because you asked, here are a few short quick answers.
1)AC/DC? Can't say until I know your boats capabilities and your water needs and wants along with your cruising style.
2) Cost. Can't do that either because I am a watermaker dealer. Board rules.
3) Single or double membrane. That's based solely on the size of the watermaker designed product output. What goes in one membrane will go in the second membrane. The second membrane is not a back up. Usually if one is failing the other one is also failing or is right behind the first. Though even brand new membranes right out of the bag can fail, most membrane failure is improper care of the system by the owner. A 5-8 year average membrane life expectancy is a good rule of thumb in a well taken care of watermaker.
Watermakers use a charcoal filter. The charcoal filters sole job is to filter out any residual chlorine introduced into your fresh water tanks from dock water during a fresh water flush. The two biggest killers of membranes is oil and chlorine.
4) Output. The $64 question. There is too little and there is too much. Do you want a unit that will barely give you enough to drink? I can get you into a unit that will make 120gph and run off the Watts a EU2000 puts out. Neither one will work out on a Leopard 46. You'd be pissed at either one and pissed at the guy that sold it to you. Back to the Goldilocks theory. When you have a boat worth 800K chances are good that the equipment on deck is worth more than any watermaker you'd consider for that size boat. If a weekly fresh water wash down of this equipment doubles it's useful life then the watermaker will pay off in spades.
5) AC/DC inverter/charger. You want a watermaker that will either run directly from the battery bank 12/24Volt or generator. Inverters are extremely inefficient for running a watermaker. Again, which power source will be determined from your intended use, wants and needs.
6) Can you find people who wish their watermaker made more water? Sure you can. The very first question I get 90% of the time from first time buyers is,"What's the smallest and cheapest watermaker you got?" My wife made me stop handing out Divining rods with a Dixie cup zipped tied to the end as a joke. I've also met plenty whose wallet was bigger than their desire to get the right information up front and bought a system that was too big for their boat. You don't need a 120gph watermaker when you only have 50 gallons of fresh water tank capacity.

I really do spend a lot of hours with customers sitting down and discussing their boats capabilities, their personal needs and wants, and how the right watermaker will fit their cruising lifestyle. If your watermaker person isn't willing to do this up front and just tells you withing a few minutes which one you need, get another watermaker guy.

[NorthPacific]

I agree with Wolf and Tellie. Everyone is different. Some want the best ie most expensive " whatever" the same way some people need to wear a rolex to tell time. Others with charter in mind or large family may need to spend lots of money on a lot of stuff.

Me I have just found out that my "great deal" on Ebay does not work (M 710) So I am 500 in the hole and counting! (the ICOM Mr fix it bills). I hope my new to me Kat 140 (from a forum member) is as good as they said it was and I can get away with not having to pack water. The other side of a water maker on a small boat is that it creates storage in that you do not have to have larger tanks etc. Anyone priced out custom built water tanks lately. A water maker can actually be a good saving! Well maybe, perhaps.

So 9 weeks and much to do, before we go. I am a weekend warrior only so I have 9 work days left. My saying now is, Ill fix that in FIjI :-)

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by NorthPacific

I agree with Wolf and Tellie. Everyone is different. Some want the best ie most expensive " whatever" the same way some people need to wear a rolex to tell time. Others with charter in mind or large family may need to spend lots of money on a lot of stuff.

Me I have just found out that my "great deal" on Ebay does not work (M 710) So I am 500 in the hole and counting! (the ICOM Mr fix it bills). I hope my new to me Kat 140 (from a forum member) is as good as they said it was and I can get away with not having to pack water. The other side of a water maker on a small boat is that it creates storage in that you do not have to have larger tanks etc. Anyone priced out custom built water tanks lately. A water maker can actually be a good saving! Well maybe, perhaps.

So 9 weeks and much to do, before we go. I am a weekend warrior only so I have 9 work days left. My saying now is, Ill fix that in FIjI :-)

The old definition of Cruising, "Nothing more than boat work in exotic places"