Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-01-2013, 05:50   #226
Registered User
 
Surfer Girl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 159
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post

I also don't feel the need to have to lug numerous jerry cans full of water across beaches and dinghy them back out to the boat.


Hi Carsten, I think you slightly misunderstood my post. I'm not saying don't get a water maker - they're a great addition to a cruising boat. What I'm saying is that even with a watermaker, 2 x 140L tanks for a RTW cruise is a bit on the skinny side for long ocean passages. I assume you want to be prepared to be as safe as you can - for very little money you can add a flexible tank or for even less money, some jerry cans. This simple, low cost solution can guarantee you have adequate drinking water in an emergency; a water maker can't guarantee that.
You don't want to spend an hour filling and transporting 5 X 20L jerry cans via dinghy to your yacht? One hour of work only once just before leaving the Canaries? Are you serious? Living on a cruising boat is a very physical existence, get used to that idea if you're gonna circumnavigate. Unless you are never going to anchor out and always moor in marinas.... Wait until you have to shop & provision for your Atlantic crossing and then lug it all via dinghy numerous times and then have to stow it all away in the boat...


I'll leave you with a scenario. You've left the Canaries and you are making your Southing to catch the trades. You are 5 days out and at 3am you hit a sleeping whale. You're lucky because instead of punching a 1m diameter hole in the hull and sinking your boat in 5 minutes (this actually happened to Steven Callahan. His book 'Adrift' is a great read...), the collision only disables your rudder. Turning back against wind & current is not possible. You jury rig your rudder but the boat is not sailing very efficiently and you are also not South enough to catch the Trades and the wind is light & variable. You now face a very slow passage to the West Indies. Now, what if your watermaker also goes on the fritz......
You might say, well then I would fire up the EPIRB. Fine, as long as you're happy to leave your expensive yacht drifting to Brazil.

I'm not trying to be facetious Carsten. I am trying to be helpful.
Mate, I teach this stuff for a living. Being safe in a boat is very easy and doesn't have to be expensive. Low tech redundancy along with the K.I.S.S principle win hands down every time when the sh*t hits the fan and you're 1500NM from anywhere. Have a read of the ARC stat totals for equipment failure every year out of all boats participating. Electronics top the list every time....
__________________

__________________

Surfer Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:00   #227
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 11,793
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

so just have a small emergency hand operated watermaker that will make enough for drinking/survival mode

can not sail around paranoid planning for all these whale hits

PS - if you are hit by a whale and your RO unit goes down, and you are drifting around using only enough water to survive, and your water tanks go empty, and it NEVER rains.............well that's a lot of "ands"
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:19   #228
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,819
Images: 1
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer Girl View Post
Hi Carsten, I think you slightly misunderstood my post. I'm not saying don't get a water maker - they're a great addition to a cruising boat. What I'm saying is that even with a watermaker, 2 x 140L tanks for a RTW cruise is a bit on the skinny side for long ocean passages. I assume you want to be prepared to be as safe as you can - for very little money you can add a flexible tank or for even less money, some jerry cans. This simple, low cost solution can guarantee you have adequate drinking water in an emergency; a water maker can't guarantee that.
You don't want to spend an hour filling and transporting 5 X 20L jerry cans via dinghy to your yacht? One hour of work only once just before leaving the Canaries? Are you serious? Living on a cruising boat is a very physical existence, get used to that idea if you're gonna circumnavigate. Unless you are never going to anchor out and always moor in marinas.... Wait until you have to shop & provision for your Atlantic crossing and then lug it all via dinghy numerous times and then have to stow it all away in the boat...


I'll leave you with a scenario. You've left the Canaries and you are making your Southing to catch the trades. You are 5 days out and at 3am you hit a sleeping whale. You're lucky because instead of punching a 1m diameter hole in the hull and sinking your boat in 5 minutes (this actually happened to Steven Callahan. His book 'Adrift' is a great read...), the collision only disables your rudder. Turning back against wind & current is not possible. You jury rig your rudder but the boat is not sailing very efficiently and you are also not South enough to catch the Trades and the wind is light & variable. You now face a very slow passage to the West Indies. Now, what if your watermaker also goes on the fritz......
You might say, well then I would fire up the EPIRB. Fine, as long as you're happy to leave your expensive yacht drifting to Brazil.

I'm not trying to be facetious Carsten. I am trying to be helpful.
Mate, I teach this stuff for a living. Being safe in a boat is very easy and doesn't have to be expensive. Low tech redundancy along with the K.I.S.S principle win hands down every time when the sh*t hits the fan and you're 1500NM from anywhere. Have a read of the ARC stat totals for equipment failure every year out of all boats participating. Electronics top the list every time....
Surfer Girl,

Wow, I expect you didn't read my posts. Do I expect to not have to carry jerry cans? No I certainly do expect to carry jerry cans at some point, but the less the better. Will I have a rain catchment system? Damn right I will. Will I have a small hand operated water maker - Damn right again.

Will I hit a Whale? Statistically no. Chances are infinitesimal. Will I hit something else? Again probably not.

Will I make sure I have the necessary safety systems to get me across? yes. But I'm not going to sink my boat loading system after system on it. At some point you have to stop and go sailing.

Are two 140 liter tanks enough to get across on? - actually the answer is yes. rock bottom survival rations are two liters per person per day, so a 30 day passage (assuming I've lost my rudder or something else) means we'll use 2x2x30 or 120 liters.


Am I aware that the electronic stuff is most prone to failure? yes, I am. Can I fix most things myself? yes, I can.

Will I fire up my EPIRB? yes, If the boat sinks. Before that? No.

Am I afraid of hard work carry provisions etc many miles to the beach and then ferrying them out to the boat? No. Given a choice, though, I prefer to not to have to lug water (which by the way, in many places around the world is contaminated).

As I've noted earlier - neither my wife nor I are interested in trying to set records for circumnavigation with as little equipment as possible. We want a certain level of comfort.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 10:49   #229
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

I didn't mean a watermaker was a luxury, just that one "needing" one that produced 20-30gph was a luxury (unless you had a large crew). My boat has two built in tanks 22g (83l) & 25g (94l) and three 15g (56l) water jugs totaling 92g (348l). Two of the jugs (they are cylindrical) can be secured on the windward side on long tacks, movable ballast. One will be dedicated to unfiltered water from shore (all can be stowed under the cockpit), the freshwater filtration system I have has a 5 micron filter followed by a ceramic 0.2 micron ceramic filter, these take out any biologicals (all cysts and e coli) and most chemical found in water.
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 13:08   #230
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,641
Images: 3
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
BAck up there somewhere I noted that I was figuring 20 liters a day for the two for us passage making. Some feel this is a lot of water.

BAsic minimum water needed for survival only = 2 liters per person per day in the tropics. Cooking dish rinse, showering (rinse off) etc will take more.

While I certainly intend to have a rain catchment device, I do not want to run out of water out there. So yes, I feel a watermaker is a necessity for passage making, not a luxury. I know some sail without it. Good for them.

I also don't feel the need to have to lug numerous jerry cans full of water across beaches and dinghy them back out to the boat.

Where are you at present regarding a watermaker from the discussion so far?

Cheers.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 14:11   #231
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

An opinion, something we had to consider in the management of our water.

Lagoon in their infinite wisdom have no valves on their water tanks allowing tanks to be isolated. This to us was not acceptable for a number of reasons the critical one being water management So we built a SS manifold allowing tank selection and isolation to the end use i.e. foot pumps, pressure pumps etc.

We fill our tanks (2) using the water maker, we draw from alternate tanks on alternate weeks so that the water is cycled and doesn't sit stagnating. We only switch to the other tank when the water-maker is ACTUALLY filling the depleted tank and we are confident it is sweet.

We do this so we are always in a position to be able to ration with at the least one FULL tank, it then matters not where we are, mid Atlantic/Pacific or up a creek we can act accordingly i.e. head for a marina, effect a repair or just deal with it.

Like all conveniences they are only convenient when they work.

Cheers Frank
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 17:28   #232
Registered User
 
Surfer Girl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 159
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
so just have a small emergency hand operated watermaker that will make enough for drinking/survival mode

can not sail around paranoid planning for all these whale hits

PS - if you are hit by a whale and your RO unit goes down, and you are drifting around using only enough water to survive, and your water tanks go empty, and it NEVER rains.............well that's a lot of "ands"


On ocean passages, planning & preparing for the worst is not paranoia - it's called seamanship, Don. I assume you've read Dashew, Cornell, Pardeys, Hiscocks, Slocum, Adlard Coles, etc.? Are you gonna dismiss their combined experience & expertise as paranoia also? Maybe you've also read the books of many world cruisers like Robin Lee Graham, Tania Aebi and hundreds of others who experienced knock downs, dismasting, pitch poling, whale or container strike, tanker near misses.....
Of course the majority of circumnavigators never experience those things. But statistics are meaningless when something does happen to you and being prepared, safety procedures & having redundancies makes all the difference. This is common practice in every industry in the western world for a reason; it saves lives - land based industry call it Occupational Health & Safety.

I've been a professional trainer and taught sailing since 1980, cruised all over the world, worked for the government as a Boating Safety Officer and now run my own business Australian Boating College. But hey, what would I know about safe boating - I'm paranoid....

Yet again I'm reminded why I don't post much on this forum. Simply trying to help a fellow sailor with some advice to increase water storage capacity for a 3-4 week ocean crossing; cheap, easy to do, low tech & prudent.

Carsten, good luck with your RTW preparations. I genuinely wish you all the best!
__________________

Surfer Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:48   #233
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,619
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
PS - if you are hit by a whale and your RO unit goes down, and you are drifting around using only enough water to survive, and your water tanks go empty, and it NEVER rains.............well that's a lot of "ands"
Bernard Stamm, Vendee Globe participant has just been disqualified. First his redundant hydro generators failed (both of them). He went to anchor in the Auckland islands and 40 kt winds caused his anchor to drag almost putting him into a Russian research vessel that had anchored near him at night. While trying to get ready to move his boat a Russian crew member boarded his boat and hauled in the anchor. Stamm then tied up to the research vessel. The next day he moved and made his repairs. He had less than 2 liters of water when he anchored in the Aucklands. Yep, stuff does happen out there...

His boat was probably one of the better prepared boats in the Vendee Globe.
__________________
DeepFrz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:54   #234
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

In a book by David Parker "Ocean Voyaging" he said something to the effect "Every system on a boat will at sometime fail and it is up to a cruising sailor to know how to, have tools and parts to be able to repair it with out any help from the outside world."
What I have come to say is that "Any system or component the failure of which puts the crew or boat at risk should be examined".
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 20:12   #235
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,641
Images: 3
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
In a book by David Parker "Ocean Voyaging" he said something to the effect "Every system on a boat will at sometime fail and it is up to a cruising sailor to know how to, have tools and parts to be able to repair it with out any help from the outside world."
What I have come to say is that "Any system or component the failure of which puts the crew or boat at risk should be examined".
Now which watermaker do we choose? We have reserve tankage for passagemaking, rain catching ability and the OP wants one.

The 1.5g/hr model or 20gal/hr for the same /similar money.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 20:13   #236
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,677
Images: 122
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
What I have come to say is that "Any system or component the failure of which puts the crew or boat at risk should be examined".
That's what's called a maintenance schedule. More inspections for some items and less for others. Hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and annually!
Captian Chekov (Checkoff)
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 23:52   #237
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,819
Images: 1
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Now which watermaker do we choose? We have reserve tankage for passagemaking, rain catching ability and the OP wants one.

The 1.5g/hr model or 20gal/hr for the same /similar money.
There are several manufacturers that have 15 and 30 liter per hours units. These run on 12VDC and don't draw much more power than can be generated by solar panels ( in the tropics). I have two tanks of 140Liters that can be isolated from each other and will run on one and fill the other, alternately.

So I should have at least 140 liters of sweet water at any time. With really hard rationing, that will last us at least a month, enough to get us into port. To put Surfer Girls mind at rest, i will also have a raincatchment system, so I'm not worried about the amount of water.

Which manufacturer? I haven't decided yet. I've started looking at Electrical usage, and mounting dimensions.

Here in Denmark these systems all seem to cost about 6-7 grand USD. It would be nice to find one a bit cheaper-

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 04:20   #238
Registered User
 
John Galt's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Titusville Fl.
Boat: Cheoy Lee Offshore 38
Posts: 120
I'm getting too old to do the Jerry jug deal. Throw your back out for a few weeks and THEN get a watermaker because you can't lift them anymore.

Not to mention what an impact a bad back would have on your other boat handling chores.

It's taken me 50 odd years to learn the cost of being cheap.
Wow! Dad was right!!
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
John Galt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 04:32   #239
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 11,793
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
So I should have at least 140 liters of sweet water at any time. With really hard rationing, that will last us at least a month, enough to get us into port.
You better rethink this because it appears that unless you also have a bunch of water jugs stored below or strapped to the stantions...............you are going to die!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 05:17   #240
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,819
Images: 1
Re: Which Watermaker To Choose

Well Don,
I was actually considering buying a very long garden hose, attaching one end to the pipe on my dock and the other end to the boat. I'll never run out of water, but there might be some pressure loss on the way...............

But Surfer Girl should be happy.............

__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
watermaker

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.