Which Watermaker To Choose

[foggysail]

GOBOATING--

Dave -- interesting-----NO, MAKE THAT VERY INTERESTING! Consider the minor difference between say 32 gallons/hr and 35-40 gallons/hr. And I remember doing the ROSA for my 35-40. With our colder water temperatures I will be lucky to get much more than 35 and of course this is with a 2HP motor.

DUMB ME! Had I found/noticed this at the start..... but I did not use ROSA at the start, I certainly would have dropped back to a 1HP motor. The component costs are the same for all practical matters. The big gain is not seeing the AC branch circuit loaded to the brink of tripping. OK, big is better although big can be much better than very big.

SV Third-Day--

I need to comment that your selecting the parameters for 32 Gal/hr were very wise!!! Good job!

Foggy

[goboatingnow]

Exactly the same as me foggy. I didn't use ROSA either and I pitched the water maker in the mid range and got near the published specs dooh. Well its long sold anyway.

Dave

[Tellie]

White mans magic? Not really. With all due respect to Rich and others, the idea that all the other big box brands use black magic, shell games, etc. to keep their customers in the dark is just not true. There's a big difference between companies the size of Village Marine, Sea Recovery, HRO, Spectra, etc. and some of the newer and smaller players. Tellies, (many times, but not always) favorite Spectra, will answer any of these questions you may have. Their complete manuals are all on line for anyone to see. They hide absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zilch. Anyone who says differently is misinformed. What can not be found on line at their website is a simple phone call away. Spectra has always had several engineers just a phone call away who will spend hours on the phone whether you are a Spectra owner or not. Wanna know how a membrane works in the real world not on a calculator" Ask them. Wanna know what you might think is salesman hyped Voodoo? Ask them. Wanna know how to fix your unit in Tonga with no local help around? Ask them. If you're a screaming demanding idiot from the get go they might not help you. But Spectra has tens of thousands of boat based watermakers out there. Most of them working as well as the day they were installed. Sure there are Spectras out there that have issues. But eliminate owner neglect, lack of understanding of how to maintain them, bad owner installations, poor advice and choice in the first place, and the problems are far, far, fewer. Add a salt water environment and there is no watermaker made that is not a higher maintenance piece of equipment on a boat. Why do I like Spectras? Simple, it's because their customer service is next to none, period. They bend over backwards and go out of their way to make sure their customers are satisfied and have done so since 1998. Are their systems cheap? Nope, but then I would invite anyone to invest millions like the big brands have to develop a more energy efficient machine. If it's a cheap price that steers your choice for a watermaker then there are plans on the Internet for $15 if you want to bolt a Cat pump to an electric motor or your boats engine and plumb it to a membrane. If that's what you want then paying anything more than about 2K for a watermaker is down right foolish. E-mail Brent Swain, somehow he will show you how to do it even cheaper. Understand, I'm not knocking any other watermaker out there, no matter whose it is. They all have a place in the small cruising boat market. For the most part we all know each other, help each other, and occasionally enjoy each others company in a non Cabal setting. But when misinformation is disseminated, intentional or not, which is just not true I feel a little responsibility to gently correct said misrepresentations.

[goboatingnow]

Tellie, no one doubts your bona fides, that's a given. But there are several RO makers that obfuscate or try and conceal
What often is very simple product. I've seen Parker valves with labels removed , seemingly custom membranes, and vague references to special functions or control algorithms. Not from Spectra ill admit.

The fact is outside of energy recovery models, the technology is very simple and virtually identical. Hence some manufacturers go to huge lengths to convince you there's is special. I agree with Rich 100% there. Dow Filmtec membranes are virtually commodity devices , but you wouldn't think that from some companies.

Dave

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Tellie, no one doubts your bona fides, that's a given. But there are several RO makers that obfuscate or try and conceal
What often is very simple product. I've seen Parker valves with labels removed , seemingly custom membranes, and vague references to special functions or control algorithms. Not from Spectra ill admit.

The fact is outside of energy recovery models, the technology is very simple and virtually identical. Hence some manufacturers go to huge lengths to convince you there's is special. I agree with Rich 100% there. Dow Filmtec membranes are virtually commodity devices , but you wouldn't think that from some companies.

Dave

As I sit here at 10:45 pm sipping a customer sent bottle of Cuban Rum.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want anybody to think I'm defending or attacking anyone. I really respect and like all of the players in this market. But I really do know a lot of them and there is some, not much, misunderstanding bantered about. So here's to ya all

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Tellie, no one doubts your bona fides, that's a given. But there are several RO makers that obfuscate or try and conceal
What often is very simple product. I've seen Parker valves with labels removed , seemingly custom membranes, and vague references to special functions or control algorithms. Not from Spectra ill admit.

The fact is outside of energy recovery models, the technology is very simple and virtually identical. Hence some manufacturers go to huge lengths to convince you there's is special. I agree with Rich 100% there. Dow Filmtec membranes are virtually commodity devices , but you wouldn't think that from some companies.

Dave

HRO does the same thing as Racor with regard to delabeling every component. Its my sick sense of entertainment that I have spent hours figuring out each and every generic version of their proprietary items.

[Pelagic]

When advising a client on where to build his super-yacht, there are many factors to consider other than cost:
Management, Infrastructure, Track Record, Personalities, Location and above all, After Sales Support.
Companies like the Feadship Yards are second to none in supporting their yachts 20 years after delivery.
You may pay more at the beginning, but that comfort level has a value, that should never be discounted.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Tellie

As I sit here at 10:45 pm sipping a customer sent bottle of Cuban Rum....

...So here's to ya all

Man, I need some better clients to send me rum!

Just to make sure my tone didn't come off wrong, let me say this.
I didn't intend to say that all water maker companies prefer to keep clients in the dark and play what I like to call the "black magic game" and Spectra is certainly one that doesn't. I will also say that most do unfortunately, just try asking them pump/motor sizes and brand questions or who makes their RO Membranes? The answer "ours are special" doesn't really answer why their membranes are $500, but that is capitalism. Spectra truly has something inventive and unique in their energy recovery Clark pump, and they certainly deserve to be able to charge a premium for that technology, absolutely and if I had it, I would also! How much of a premium? Well what ever the market will bear, quite honestly until the Federal Government invents a "Right" to have a water maker, which those Bozos in DC could just do next

Mistakenly I think, there is a fear in the water maker industry that if the client has "too much" information he will just build his own unit, which I've honestly found not to be the case at all. It's why we load our manual with information simply not found in most of the other water maker manuals. The more I educate people before they buy, the more sales I tend to make as they appreciate the value I'm bringing to the table. Look, some of us here digging into the bowels of the numbers and data are nerd-techies (said with love and admiration), but we are NOT representative of the typical cruiser or boater. Most Cruisers simply want to understand the options on the table to help them make a more informed decision, but would rather buy an off the shelf unit than doing it themselves for reasons ranging from time, warranty, and support. Outfitting a cruising boat has enough stress and worry without taking on yet another project.

Can someone build their own water maker, absolutely, and it's why we sell water maker parts to the Do-it-yourself guy as well as full systems. I know what all the quality raw parts go for over the internet and how much time and energy it will take to source them all including the incoming freight on the parts and time evolved. We used that number to help set our pricing points. More often than not a client that starts out intending to only buy parts from us to build their own while getting our full help and advice end up buying a full system. We are more than happy to just sell parts because we save on the labor costs ourselves...labor costs money, pure and simple. It's much easier to put parts in a box than to ship them assembled, it's either our labor that you pay for or your own labor that you also pay in different ways of-course.

In the end competition is great for the water maker market. As a great example, two other water maker companies have increased their 1 year warranty to 3 to match ours. Competition forced them to do that and it's great for the consumers even if they don't buy from me!

Rich
SV THIRD DAY

[Lagoon4us]

As Rich and Tellie know i've dismantled my water maker and found serious neglect over a very long time combined with a steel fitted high pressure hose resulting in last rites for the membrane.

Here is the second quote i've received for a replacement membrane :-
Dear Mr. Maunders,

Prices for membrane:
Membranes P/N 2724011433, 1,067.00€ + VAT
O-Ring Kit, P/N B30080007, 10.00€ + VAT

On membranes I can give you 10% discount and free delivery to port at your choice in Croatia.
Delivery time is approximately 15 days.
If this is acceptable for you, please let me know to send you official offer in order to do the payment before ordering it.

Thank you!

Best Regards,

I've ordered a housing from Rich complete with a membrane for half the value of their replacement. Yes it will be slightly smaller simply because they have their membranes built to a larger diameter.

In the future should we need more water we can add the second membrane, we will likely do this in the Caribbean in the coming years......

Cheers great thread and good technical debate.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Man, I need some better clients to send me rum!

Just to make sure my tone didn't come off wrong, let me say this.
I didn't intend to say that all water maker companies prefer to keep clients in the dark and play what I like to call the "black magic game" and Spectra is certainly one that doesn't. I will also say that most do unfortunately, just try asking them pump/motor sizes and brand questions or who makes their RO Membranes? The answer "ours are special" doesn't really answer why their membranes are $500, but that is capitalism. Spectra truly has something inventive and unique in their energy recovery Clark pump, and they certainly deserve to be able to charge a premium for that technology, absolutely and if I had it, I would also! How much of a premium? Well what ever the market will bear, quite honestly until the Federal Government invents a "Right" to have a water maker, which those Bozos in DC could just do next

Mistakenly I think, there is a fear in the water maker industry that if the client has "too much" information he will just build his own unit, which I've honestly found not to be the case at all. It's why we load our manual with information simply not found in most of the other water maker manuals. The more I educate people before they buy, the more sales I tend to make as they appreciate the value I'm bringing to the table. Look, some of us here digging into the bowels of the numbers and data are nerd-techies (said with love and admiration), but we are NOT representative of the typical cruiser or boater. Most Cruisers simply want to understand the options on the table to help them make a more informed decision, but would rather buy an off the shelf unit than doing it themselves for reasons ranging from time, warranty, and support. Outfitting a cruising boat has enough stress and worry without taking on yet another project.

Can someone build their own water maker, absolutely, and it's why we sell water maker parts to the Do-it-yourself guy as well as full systems. I know what all the quality raw parts go for over the internet and how much time and energy it will take to source them all including the incoming freight on the parts and time evolved. We used that number to help set our pricing points. More often than not a client that starts out intending to only buy parts from us to build their own while getting our full help and advice end up buying a full system. We are more than happy to just sell parts because we save on the labor costs ourselves...labor costs money, pure and simple. It's much easier to put parts in a box than to ship them assembled, it's either our labor that you pay for or your own labor that you also pay in different ways of-course.

In the end competition is great for the water maker market. As a great example, two other water maker companies have increased their 1 year warranty to 3 to match ours. Competition forced them to do that and it's great for the consumers even if they don't buy from me!

Rich
SV THIRD DAY

Good points Rich and I agree with them. I want to make sure my tone doesn't come off wrong as well. I know that most people won't build their own watermaker, a few try and many of those just end up buying one instead like you stated. I've admired and followed your business for awhile now. But a little different perspective. Sailors are a different breed of consumer and the bigger guys attitude reflects it. I'm not totally convinced that the bigger guys keep things secret because of, or are really worried much that a small handful of sailors will go out and build their own watermakers with the information they do or do not give them. I think it's more the attitude most in the marine industry have towards cruising sailors. I believe, no, I know sailors are the nicest usually the most capable boaters on the water. I'm a sailor myself. But the reality is we have a well known and many times a well earned reputation in the Marine industry as being cheap. In our quest to be as frugal as possible some of us tend to waste a lot of others expensive time. It's not to say that people shouldn't have their questions answered and that they deserve some time focused on them. That's part the business the others are in. But I can't even count any more how many people have talked to me for hours and hours in person, on the phone, by E-mail about all the nerdy details about watermakers knowing full well they are just picking my brain so they can eventually shop the Internet to save a few hundred dollars. Personally I don't mind because I really like what I do. I realize I'm never going to get rich doing this. I've been fortunate in other fields that it allows me to operate my small business like I always wanted by truly putting my customers first and spending tons of time with them just having fun. But I also do realize that others in this field are trying to make a living and don't have the time luxury I do. That doesn't make them bad guys it's just that sometimes they rightly or wrongly prioritize their time. VM, HRO, Sea Recovery, Spectra, etc. have larger overheads than we do. They also give their distributorships to larger established marine businesses where watermakers become just a side line to their other products and services and not their primary focus. The bigger money in marine based watermakers is simply in larger more abundant power boats. Where owners of these boats will much more easily write a check for larger more complicated units than most sailors would consider. I believe it's more "Follow the money" attitude. That's OK, it leaves our little niche market to enjoy because I'd still rather sit in the cockpit of a sailboat talking to a sailor about watermakers.
As an aside, I see you are mostly on the west coast. I think you need a bigger dealer/distributor watermaker focused presence over here on the east coast. Juuust sayin.

[wolfenzee]

I agree reverse osmosis desalinization units have been around for some time, mainly land based and on ships. Until relatively recently the only units available in a size suitble for boats was manual "survival" type units. The powered versions that are now available have not been around sll that long. The prices I have heard for an electronic unit including instalation don't seem realistic (I think I heard someone say $25,000 not including power upgrade). I have seen desalinization units designed for home use for $250 including pressure tank and water pump.
Any gizmo is only as reliable as the weakest link in the electrical and/or electronic system.
I have seen people whose electric fresh water pump died (few are designed to be able to be rebuilt)and they did not have a manual pump.
This is fine for the people cruising close enough to a well stocked chandlery. The freshwater pump on my boat was designed to be rebuilt and has been in constant use since 1920.
How much do water makers cost?
With out much looking around I found the PUR Power-40 (1.5gph at 4amps): $3600+Extended cruise kit $320

[ChuckSK]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

As Rich and Tellie know i've dismantled my water maker and found serious neglect over a very long time combined with a steel fitted high pressure hose resulting in last rites for the membrane.

Here is the second quote i've received for a replacement membrane :-
Dear Mr. Maunders,

Prices for membrane:
Membranes P/N 2724011433, 1,067.00€ + VAT
O-Ring Kit, P/N B30080007, 10.00€ + VAT

On membranes I can give you 10% discount and free delivery to port at your choice in Croatia.
Delivery time is approximately 15 days.
If this is acceptable for you, please let me know to send you official offer in order to do the payment before ordering it.

Thank you!

Best Regards,

I've ordered a housing from Rich complete with a membrane for half the value of their replacement. Yes it will be slightly smaller simply because they have their membranes built to a larger diameter.

In the future should we need more water we can add the second membrane, we will likely do this in the Caribbean in the coming years......

Cheers great thread and good technical debate.

You mention that you plan to add a second membrane later. I do not think that will work.

The watermaker you have uses an energy transfer device ETD to increase the pump output pressure to a level high enough for the membrane. The mechanical characteristics of the ETD predetermine the recovery rate of your system. I think it is 11% for your system. The ETD increases pressure in the membrane until the difference between feed flow and the exhaust flow equals 11%. Adding another membrane would simply divide that 11% between the 2 membranes, say 6% and 5%. The total amount of product water would remain the same. The only way to increase product water is to increase the feed flow with a higher capacity pump. That however might exceed the capacity of the ETD.

Chuck

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by ChuckSK

You mention that you plan to add a second membrane later. I do not think that will work.

The watermaker you have uses an energy transfer device ETD to increase the pump output pressure to a level high enough for the membrane. The mechanical characteristics of the ETD predetermine the recovery rate of your system. I think it is 11% for your system. The ETD increases pressure in the membrane until the difference between feed flow and the exhaust flow equals 11%. Adding another membrane would simply divide that 11% between the 2 membranes, say 6% and 5%. The total amount of product water would remain the same. The only way to increase product water is to increase the feed flow with a higher capacity pump. That however might exceed the capacity of the ETD.

Chuck

The membrane i'm putting on is 2-1/2" instead of the proprietary 3" because only Sea-Recovery has 3" available and i'm not paying 1500 dollars for anyones membrane.
Hence i will have a lower output with the one but a second one would bring it back to similar or if not a little more than original...
Cheers

[ChuckSK]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

The membrane i'm putting on is 2-1/2" instead of the proprietary 3" because only Sea-Recovery has 3" available and i'm not paying 1500 dollars for anyones membrane.
Hence i will have a lower output with the one but a second one would bring it back to similar or if not a little more than original...
Cheers

The amount of product water is determined by the amount of feed water times the recovery rate. The recovery rate is determined by the ETD. The number or size of the membranes does not matter.

Chuck

[Lagoon4us]

Sorry i don't follow the logic, surely if the membrane it was designed for had a certain surface area or whatever and i put a smaller one on i'll get less product?