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Old 05-08-2013, 21:46   #16
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
It's interesting that you all test your product water regularly. Does the sample ever read different? And if so, what would you do to correct it?

Samples will always read differently. It depends on salinity, temperature, pre-filter condition, depth of water, and how far you move around. Membranes don't usually fail catastrophically but rather over time. Keeping a mental running record of the PPMs will give you an indication when the membrane is finally giving up. Also because membranes don't fail all of a sudden it's not unheard of that some people who don't test regularly tend to get accustom to the increasing salt taste and not until a new person comes aboard and tastes the water is it noticed. For the most part if the rest of the system is operating properly, there's not really much you can do if the membrane is failing and the PPM readings increase.
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Old 06-08-2013, 02:43   #17
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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It's interesting that you all test your product water regularly. Does the sample ever read different? And if so, what would you do to correct it?
We check it before and after the run for the reasons stated above. Because of this we noticed that over time the readings were increasing. I checked and changed the wiring to reduce the voltage drop and it made a huge difference but this still didn't explain the increase as the wiring had not changed. Thanks to Tellie above, we got the ins and outs of the membranes and filters and so on. Hugely helpful chap!
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Old 06-08-2013, 02:58   #18
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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I am questioning which water maker to get. Thinking the Katadyn will run often. Saw your note about getting tired of hearing it run. The Cruise RO Water at 20gph for $3800 seems like a good option.

What say you?
If you're in the mood for a little light reading, this thread covers virtually all the ins and outs of water makers:
Which Watermaker To Choose

450 some odd posts. Great to help you fall asleep
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:36   #19
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

I have a 40e as well, I am very glad I never plumbed it direct to the tanks or we would have had contamination several times, i hope your through hull is well below the waterline and make sure all hoses are extremely air tight, even the slightest small air leak will cause the salinity to rise to unacceptable levels, our common fault was the spool valve going due to small air bubbles in the system in rough weather or when healed over, they are not tolerant of air leaks and the spool valve fails very quickly when air gets into the system. If i fitted one again id use good gasket paste and an independent through hull at the lowest point in the hull, teeing it off the heads was nightmare for air in the system.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:53   #20
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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Originally Posted by rjgmt1 View Post
I am questioning which water maker to get. Thinking the Katadyn will run often. Saw your note about getting tired of hearing it run. The Cruise RO Water at 20gph for $3800 seems like a good option.

What say you?
While very happy with a Spectra because of the low power consumption, I would consider Echotec ones too. Three of my neighbours got them and they do the job nicely. Don't know if they will last as they are new but they look fine.

Lots more info in this forum, plenty of posts to read.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:07   #21
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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Originally Posted by rjgmt1 View Post
I am questioning which water maker to get. Thinking the Katadyn will run often. Saw your note about getting tired of hearing it run. The Cruise RO Water at 20gph for $3800 seems like a good option.

What say you?
So I had a PUR 80 on the boat which ran well but needed 40-60 gallons a week of fresh water. So the PUR 80 would need to run 12+ hours/week. I would like to see that number of hours be less or move to system that was quieter.

I also don't like to run the engine at anchor so am not interested in a pump mounted on the engine or an a refrigeration pump mounted on the engine.
The electrical needs of the refrigeration, lighting, radios, electronics, etc are easily met with solar panels. Monitor Windvane for sailing and WH Autopilot for motoring.

Making water consumed more electricity then the solar panels could make. d

My solution would be to a higher capacity more efficient water maker and to reduce electrical loads thruout the boat so that more solar energy was available to run the water maker. Almost all lights on the boat are now LED. Only the naviagation lights (running and steaming) required when running the engine are not LED. Plan on adding insulation to the refrigerator box to reduce the amount of the time the refrigerator has to run. Maybe add some additional solar panels , perhaps flexible ones that would only be deployed at anchor.

For the water maker I would go with one of the Spectra units which are significantly more effient then the Katydyn (sp ??) or PUR models. ie. More water produced for same amount of energy and produce it at a faster rate then the my old PUR 80.

The Cruise RO system you ask about produces a lot of water in a short time but is not very efficient and in most installations requires a generator to power the unit. I am not interested in installating/maintaining a generator on the boat and I am less interested in a gasoline powered generator and having to carry additional quantities of gasoline on the boat to power the generator.

I am looking at solutions that minimise the amount of gasoline I carry while still maintaining my scuba addiction and the resulting larger dinghy/gasoline outboard and gasoline powered scuba compressor. Things like inflatable kayaks that could be used in place of the dinghy to get to shore or sailing dinghys that would be in addition to my Achillies inflatable dinghy and/or spending more of my time free diving rather then scuba diving.

So in my mind its all about what choices you make about how you are going to set up the systems on your boat, what systems you need, how much you want to depend on running your engine at anchor to meet your energy needs and/or dependency on a generator to meet your energy needs and finally how much gasoline and/or diesel you are willing to carry with you. Once your philosophy on this becomes clear the choices on systems such as watermakers becomes clearer.

Regards

Marc Hall
Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37
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Old 06-08-2013, 15:21   #22
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
Samples will always read differently. It depends on salinity, temperature, pre-filter condition, depth of water, and how far you move around. Membranes don't usually fail catastrophically but rather over time. Keeping a mental running record of the PPMs will give you an indication when the membrane is finally giving up. Also because membranes don't fail all of a sudden it's not unheard of that some people who don't test regularly tend to get accustom to the increasing salt taste and not until a new person comes aboard and tastes the water is it noticed. For the most part if the rest of the system is operating properly, there's not really much you can do if the membrane is failing and the PPM readings increase.
Thanks Tellie. It makes sense the samples will change, but do they ever go out of range? As for the membranes, don't they fail by plugging up? It is hard to see how they would fail by allowing more salinity through them.

I make somewhere around 200 gallons per day. Palarran has an SK manual control system so I just start the feed pump, high pressure pump, and increase the pressure. If there's an actual risk of contamination I'd check the ppm but hadn't seen a reason yet.

Rebel Heart, how often do you have to change your pre-filter? Do you have the 20 and 5 micron? I need to change the 20 micron after about 5000 gallons of product water, or once per month and the 5 micron every two months.
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Old 06-08-2013, 15:32   #23
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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Rebel Heart, how often do you have to change your pre-filter? Do you have the 20 and 5 micron? I need to change the 20 micron after about 5000 gallons of product water, or once per month and the 5 micron every two months.
You've got to be somewhere cold. Down here I need to clean, dry, and swap out the prefilters every day.

The water temp is 85f-90f. Lots of stuff growing.
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Old 06-08-2013, 16:01   #24
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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You've got to be somewhere cold. Down here I need to clean, dry, and swap out the prefilters every day.

The water temp is 85f-90f. Lots of stuff growing.
It has more to do with water clarity/turbidity than anything. This prefilter is over three months old. Water temperature is about 28c (82F).
The water is exceptionally clear in the anchorages I have been lately so this is better than average performance, but it does illustrate the difference between clean and dirty water.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:04   #25
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Thanks Tellie. It makes sense the samples will change, but do they ever go out of range? As for the membranes, don't they fail by plugging up? It is hard to see how they would fail by allowing more salinity through them.

I make somewhere around 200 gallons per day. Palarran has an SK manual control system so I just start the feed pump, high pressure pump, and increase the pressure. If there's an actual risk of contamination I'd check the ppm but hadn't seen a reason yet.

Rebel Heart, how often do you have to change your pre-filter? Do you have the 20 and 5 micron? I need to change the 20 micron after about 5000 gallons of product water, or once per month and the 5 micron every two months.
Out of range is relative. 150-200PPM difference either way is pretty insignificant if the operating ranges are normally in the 200-300 PPM range. Plugging a membrane, or bio fouling, is usually more a result of both non use, improper storage, and not properly flushing a watermaker. But membranes can be damaged by too high of a flow through them. They rely on a certain amount of flux across their surfaces to operate properly and it is interrupted when increasing the flow beyond the membranes rated capabilities and can damage the surfaces . This happens more often to salt water membranes when used in fresh water if the pressures and flows are not adjusted accordingly and to many DIY systems that use high pressure plunger pumps that can easily deliver massive amounts of flow if not controlled properly. Again checking your PPM levels every few run times is a good idea more for an idea of the condition of the membrane because in a good working system membranes don't usually fail all of a sudden but over a long period of time. If in a good working system your PPMs rise to say over 700PPM over time it's a good indication that the membrane is on it's last leg and it will need replacing probably within the year if not sooner. This buys you some time before having to replace it right away. Remember checking the PPM serves the purpose above but you really can't compare one watermaker to another. If you had ten identical watermakers in ten identical installations and conditions, you'd get ten different PPM readings.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:06   #26
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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It has more to do with water clarity/turbidity than anything. This prefilter is over three months old. Water temperature is about 28c (82F).
The water is exceptionally clear in the anchorages I have been lately so this is better than average performance, but it does illustrate the difference between clean and dirty water.

Wow, that IS exceptional service. That 5-Micron looks brand new out of the package.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:18   #27
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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You've got to be somewhere cold. Down here I need to clean, dry, and swap out the prefilters every day.

The water temp is 85f-90f. Lots of stuff growing.

Rebel,
If you really need to change out your pre-filter every day on a 40e then you need better pre-filtration or not run your system in these conditions. If it is truly clogging that fast even the best pre-filters are eventually going to let you down. Pre-filters are just not that perfect. High amounts of whatever, that clogs a pre-filter that quickly will work it's way past the pre-filter and allow an unacceptable amount of particulate past too quickly. Where in normal conditions the small amounts that do get by can be flushed out during use, (another reason longer run times instead of more frequent and short run times are good for membranes) but heavy amounts all at once can overwhelm the designed flushing capabilities of the membrane. Then the membrane will not be able to pass it all through the brine discharge, leading to early clogging of the membrane.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:37   #28
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

We have a Spectra 400 gal per day water maker that we are interested in getting off our boat, was on board when we purchased in '05 was installed we think a yr earlier, we used once and repickled, also have some spare filters and parts, looks like new!no rust at all! What would be a good asking price?
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Old 06-08-2013, 18:04   #29
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

Are you guys using the 20 micron into a 5 micron set-up?

Noelex - thats the clean Med water for you. I could see my anchor in 60' of water in Croatia - amazing. The downside is we lost about 6 gph due to the higher salinity levels.
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Old 06-08-2013, 18:22   #30
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Re: Watermakers: Where do you have your Product Water Plumbed?

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We have a Spectra 400 gal per day water maker that we are interested in getting off our boat, was on board when we purchased in '05 was installed we think a yr earlier, we used once and repickled, also have some spare filters and parts, looks like new!no rust at all! What would be a good asking price?

I can't say without more information. But if you like you can send me some pictures of your unit (the more the better) along with the date of manufacture. I'll ask you some questions and I could give you a good idea of what it is worth. Send me a PM and I'll give you my E-mail address.
Used Spectras rarely come up for sale and good ones will fetch a good price. Usually a lot more than any other brand.

PS, If you're in the S. Florida area, for the price of a Corona or two I'll stop by and take a look at it and let you know right away.
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