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Old 04-04-2009, 11:14   #16
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Add a small amount of Gatorade to your drinking water - It will add back some minerals and give it a slight taste. Trace minerals are just that - only a trace.
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Old 04-04-2009, 13:23   #17
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Though watermakers filter out far more things that are bad for you than things that are good for you, there is some evidence of issues with drinking RO exclusively. You would have to be in a rare survival situation where all you had is RO water to survive on. No food or any other nutrients available. The body can actually become a RO system itself. Introducing water with no minerals to the body as in RO or distilled water will, on a very small scale, start osmosing minerals from the body into the ingested water to equalize the rest of the bodys fluid makeup, thus in theory removing minerals from the body. This would take a considerable amount of time to start showing signs of ill effects. A lot longer than it would take to be rescued. There are thousands of watermakers out there, I deal with hundreds of them and as far as I know no one has gotten sick or died from them. I've known people to get sick drinking from their tanks which they send their RO water to. But that's because the tank is contaminated in the first place and they have no means od filtering tank water onboard.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:00   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Had a cruiser on board for dinner last night (he bought the meat, desert AND the cheese and biccies!! )...

He said that watermakers filter out the trace elements and leave a water so pure that people will get very sick / die as they can't get trace elements from food etc.

Sounds like Bull Twaddle to me!!!

Anyone heard of this and can gently debunk it, please


Mark
Interestingly about 15 years back I heard from a different dinner guest (and doctor) just the opposite. That RO watermakers using SEAWATER as the source, leave behind just enough trace elements to make them the perfect fluid replacement for the body.

After a couple more rums, he expanded on the subject suggesting this was because humans had evoled from the sea.

So now we have to get our respective guests together and let them discuss it to the death while we take care of the rum bottles .
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:50   #19
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A biologist I work with said the same. That the amount and ratios of trace elements found in ocean water is very close to the necessary trace elements found in our body because of having evolved from the sea.
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Old 05-04-2009, 15:44   #20
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Did he also bring his own meat, desert etc etc?
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Old 05-04-2009, 17:35   #21
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1) These are seawater RO systems, and as noted above, they leave a TDS somewhat similar to that of typical city tapwater.

2) These same discussions have been beat to death on Saltwater Fish/Reefer boards - because we strive for ZERO TDS.

3) As a molecular biologist, we drink RO/DI water ALL THE TIME. It makes great ice, by the way (crystal clear). It's a typical urban myth/internet hoax.
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Old 13-04-2009, 19:39   #22
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I don't buy the urban myth story. I see too many people arguing with: "I know this person who....." or " I always........" but that is no scientific proof.
Real research proves that e.g. teeth and bones like it that our local water has fluoride, calcium, iodine, etc in it. If it hadn't it wouldn't immediately kill us but it would make us less healthy.
When mankind's average age was 40, none of this was an issue. Now that we have doubled this number these details start to matter.
The story is bigger than just the water.
We will never know if it was the McDonald's, the pizza, the bbq or the fruitloops that slowly but surely killed us. The dead water may have been just a minor accomplice........
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Old 14-04-2009, 19:35   #23
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There are over 11,000 desalination plants worldwide. The suspicion that they are not healthy is of recent origin. The evidence is steadily mounting that they are not. There appears to be a leaching effect if 'too pure' water is ingested.

"Over about 50 years, a body of epidemiology work especially in UK, USA, Canada and
Scandanavia has fairly consistently suggested that some types of cardiovascular disease mortality
rates in many communities are inversely proportional to the hardness of the water supply.Calcium and magnesium are the principal components of hard water so many researchers have
concluded that calcium and particularly magnesium may have a protective effect. There are
biochemical arguments that can be raised in support of the hypothesis, however the issue is not
resolved with absolute certainty. More recent studies seem to be finding greater positive effects
from magnesium rather than calcium intake particularly in regard to reduced risk from stroke or
ischemic heart disease."
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publication..._chap2_eng.pdf

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_...ineralized.pdf

"It has been adequately demonstrated that consuming water of low mineral content has a
negative effect on homeostasis mechanisms, compromising the mineral and water metabolism in
the body. An increase in urine output (i.e., increased diuresis) is associated with an increase in
excretion of major intra- and extracellular ions from the body fluids, their negative balance, and
changes in body water levels and functional activity of some body water management-dependent
hormones.Experiments in animals, primarily rats, for up to one-year periods have repeatedly
shown that the intake of distilled water or water with TDS ≤ 75 mg/L leads to: 1.) increased water
intake, diuresis, extracellular fluid volume, and serum concentrations of sodium (Na) and chloride
(Cl) ions and their increased elimination from the body, resulting in an overall negative balance..,
and 2.) lower volumes of red cells and some other hematocrit changes (3). Although Rakhmanin
et al. (6) did not find mutagenic or gonadotoxic effects of distilled water, they did report
decreased secretion of tri-iodothyronine and aldosterone, increased secretion of cortisol,
morphological changes in the kidneys including a more pronounced atrophy of glomeruli, and
swollen vascular endothelium limiting the blood flow. Reduced skeletal ossification was also
found in rat foetuses whose dams were given distilled water in a one-year study. Apparently the
reduced mineral intake from water was not compensated by their diets, even if the animals were
kept on standardized diet that was physiologically adequate in caloric value, nutrients and salt
composition.
Results of experiments in human volunteers evaluated by researchers for the WHO report
(3) are in agreement with those in animal experiments and suggest the basic mechanism of the
effects of water low in TDS (e.g. < 100 mg/L) on water and mineral homeostasis. Low-mineral
water markedly: 1.) increased diuresis (almost by 20%, on average), body water volume, and
serum sodium concentrations, 2.) decreased serum potassium concentration, and 3.) increased the
elimination of sodium, potassium, chloride, calcium and magnesium ions from the body. It was
thought that low-mineral water acts on osmoreceptors of the gastrointestinal tract, causing an
increased flow of sodium ions into the intestinal lumen and slight reduction in osmotic pressure in
the portal venous system with subsequent enhanced release of sodium into the blood as an
adaptation response. This osmotic change in the blood plasma results in the redistribution of body
water; that is, there is an increase in the total extracellular fluid volume and the transfer of water
from erythrocytes and interstitial fluid into the plasma and between intracellular and interstitial
fluids. In response to the changed plasma volume, baroreceptors and volume receptors in the
bloodstream are activated, inducing a decrease in aldosterone release and thus an increase in
sodium elimination. Reactivity of the volume receptors in the vessels may result in a decrease in
ADH release and an enhanced diuresis. The German Society for Nutrition reached similar
conclusions about the effects of distilled water and warned the public against drinking it (7). The
warning was published in response to the German edition of The Shocking Truth About Water (8 ),
whose authors recommended drinking distilled water instead of "ordinary" drinking water. The
Society in its position paper (7) explains that water in the human body always contains
electrolytes (e.g. potassium and sodium) at certain concentrations controlled by the body. Water
resorption by the intestinal epithelium is also enabled by sodium transport. If distilled water is
ingested, the intestine has to add electrolytes to this water first, taking them from the body
reserves. Since the body never eliminates fluid in form of "pure" water but always together with
salts, adequate intake of electrolytes must be ensured. Ingestion of distilled water leads to the
dilution of the electrolytes dissolved in the body water. Inadequate body water redistribution
between compartments may compromise the function of vital organs. Symptoms at the very
beginning of this condition include tiredness, weakness and headache; more severe symptoms are
muscular cramps and impaired heart rate."

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publication..._chap2_eng.pdf

It should be noted that the World Health Orgainization (WHO) is a fairly conservative organization, not given to sensationalism or extremes. In light of the trendline in this area of scientific inquiry, I would not blissfully assume that demineralized water is harmless. The fact is, we don't know. The epidemiological studies suggest that something is wrong with demineralized water, but the biologists can't conclusively tell us what. Kind of like smoking, back in the day.

It should be noted that deminerized water is not found in nature, anywhere.
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Old 14-04-2009, 22:14   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
It should be noted that deminerized water is not found in nature, anywhere.
I'm sorry, but this where your WHOLE post comes unraveled. Not only does it exist, it exists EVERYWHERE. What the heck do you think DEW is, CLOUDS are, FOG is, CONDENSATE on surfaces, etc.? It's EVERYWHERE.
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Old 15-04-2009, 06:58   #25
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Yes, that is a strange statement. Yet not enough to undermine the rest of the story.
All I know is about empirical data on large groups of people where good water has a positive influence on many aspects of health.
Of course dead water won't kill you, and if nothing else is available I'll drink it, even for a whole year.... But especially children and pregnant women, but also others should not drink dead water all the time.
Of course there are hundreds of other things these people should do (fruit, fiber, vitamins, exercise, seatbelts, etc....) and not do (lard, sugar, sit, run red lights, etc) and this water thing is just one aspect out of these hundreds.
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Old 15-04-2009, 09:02   #26
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Sorry, but when I see what I consider a blatantly incorrect statement, whatever else was included in the post becomes suspect.

Besides, I LOVE lard! (but don't eat it).
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Old 15-04-2009, 17:39   #27
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Sorry, but I don't. Scientists are - fortunately - no politicians. My experience is that they always somewhere in their enthusiasm make an exaggeration and it would be wrong to dismiss all of the good work because of that.
At the same time, though, you have to admit that pure/dead H2O never exists very long, it always quickly finds something to dissolve in it. Right, that doesn't prove much, but the point of the researcher seems to be that drinking pure/dead/distilled water is as foreign to our body as many of the newest preservatives. Humans are part of a living system that has developed expecting minerals in water. If you start taking them out you somehow shortchange a living system and will have to compensate for that. That is how I read that 'strange' statement.

I love lard too. I sometimes fry bacon. Love the smell. Then let the dog eat it.
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Old 15-04-2009, 22:01   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htraudes View Post
Sorry, but I don't. Scientists are - fortunately - no politicians. My experience is that they always somewhere in their enthusiasm make an exaggeration and it would be wrong to dismiss all of the good work because of that.
As a former scientist, I can take issue with this. Unfortunately, for publishing scientists, it's all about the grant money. Sorry I feel this way, but it's what chased me out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htraudes View Post
At the same time, though, you have to admit that pure/dead H2O never exists very long, it always quickly finds something to dissolve in it.
Really? Hmm. No, you won't get me to admit that. Glaciers and Icebergs are very pure - no dissolved minerals, anyway, and some are thousands of years old - many are 15,000 years old. I'd consider that "long". Wouldn't you?

Edit: And don't forget - over 98% of the fresh surface water on earth is in ICE.
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Old 16-04-2009, 01:17   #29
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We need to separate out what kinds of watermakers we're talking about. I believe many of the world's desalination plants are distillation based, which your reference appears to be talking about. Watermakers on boats are RO based. As others have posted above TDS of RO seems to mostly be above 150, at least double that of the distilled water from your reference. From what I've been able to find, RO might preferentially remove ions like Ca, and Mg, but only by a few percent.

Seattle's water is supposed to range from 40-80 TDS, so it's at least as unhealthy as the water from the distillation plants and worse for you than RO on your boat from the standpoint of lack of minerals.

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
There are over 11,000 desalination plants worldwide. The suspicion that they are not healthy is of recent origin. The evidence is steadily mounting that they are not. There appears to be a leaching effect if 'too pure' water is ingested.

"Over about 50 years, a body of epidemiology work especially in UK, USA, Canada and
Scandanavia has fairly consistently suggested that some types of cardiovascular disease mortality
rates in many communities are inversely proportional to the hardness of the water supply.Calcium and magnesium are the principal components of hard water so many researchers have
concluded that calcium and particularly magnesium may have a protective effect. There are
biochemical arguments that can be raised in support of the hypothesis, however the issue is not
resolved with absolute certainty. More recent studies seem to be finding greater positive effects
from magnesium rather than calcium intake particularly in regard to reduced risk from stroke or
ischemic heart disease."
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publication..._chap2_eng.pdf

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_...ineralized.pdf

"It has been adequately demonstrated that consuming water of low mineral content has a
negative effect on homeostasis mechanisms, compromising the mineral and water metabolism in
the body. An increase in urine output (i.e., increased diuresis) is associated with an increase in
excretion of major intra- and extracellular ions from the body fluids, their negative balance, and
changes in body water levels and functional activity of some body water management-dependent
hormones.Experiments in animals, primarily rats, for up to one-year periods have repeatedly
shown that the intake of distilled water or water with TDS ≤ 75 mg/L leads to: 1.) increased water
intake, diuresis, extracellular fluid volume, and serum concentrations of sodium (Na) and chloride
(Cl) ions and their increased elimination from the body, resulting in an overall negative balance..,
and 2.) lower volumes of red cells and some other hematocrit changes (3). Although Rakhmanin
et al. (6) did not find mutagenic or gonadotoxic effects of distilled water, they did report
decreased secretion of tri-iodothyronine and aldosterone, increased secretion of cortisol,
morphological changes in the kidneys including a more pronounced atrophy of glomeruli, and
swollen vascular endothelium limiting the blood flow. Reduced skeletal ossification was also
found in rat foetuses whose dams were given distilled water in a one-year study. Apparently the
reduced mineral intake from water was not compensated by their diets, even if the animals were
kept on standardized diet that was physiologically adequate in caloric value, nutrients and salt
composition.
Results of experiments in human volunteers evaluated by researchers for the WHO report
(3) are in agreement with those in animal experiments and suggest the basic mechanism of the
effects of water low in TDS (e.g. < 100 mg/L) on water and mineral homeostasis. Low-mineral
water markedly: 1.) increased diuresis (almost by 20%, on average), body water volume, and
serum sodium concentrations, 2.) decreased serum potassium concentration, and 3.) increased the
elimination of sodium, potassium, chloride, calcium and magnesium ions from the body. It was
thought that low-mineral water acts on osmoreceptors of the gastrointestinal tract, causing an
increased flow of sodium ions into the intestinal lumen and slight reduction in osmotic pressure in
the portal venous system with subsequent enhanced release of sodium into the blood as an
adaptation response. This osmotic change in the blood plasma results in the redistribution of body
water; that is, there is an increase in the total extracellular fluid volume and the transfer of water
from erythrocytes and interstitial fluid into the plasma and between intracellular and interstitial
fluids. In response to the changed plasma volume, baroreceptors and volume receptors in the
bloodstream are activated, inducing a decrease in aldosterone release and thus an increase in
sodium elimination. Reactivity of the volume receptors in the vessels may result in a decrease in
ADH release and an enhanced diuresis. The German Society for Nutrition reached similar
conclusions about the effects of distilled water and warned the public against drinking it (7). The
warning was published in response to the German edition of The Shocking Truth About Water (8 ),
whose authors recommended drinking distilled water instead of "ordinary" drinking water. The
Society in its position paper (7) explains that water in the human body always contains
electrolytes (e.g. potassium and sodium) at certain concentrations controlled by the body. Water
resorption by the intestinal epithelium is also enabled by sodium transport. If distilled water is
ingested, the intestine has to add electrolytes to this water first, taking them from the body
reserves. Since the body never eliminates fluid in form of "pure" water but always together with
salts, adequate intake of electrolytes must be ensured. Ingestion of distilled water leads to the
dilution of the electrolytes dissolved in the body water. Inadequate body water redistribution
between compartments may compromise the function of vital organs. Symptoms at the very
beginning of this condition include tiredness, weakness and headache; more severe symptoms are
muscular cramps and impaired heart rate."

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publication..._chap2_eng.pdf

It should be noted that the World Health Orgainization (WHO) is a fairly conservative organization, not given to sensationalism or extremes. In light of the trendline in this area of scientific inquiry, I would not blissfully assume that demineralized water is harmless. The fact is, we don't know. The epidemiological studies suggest that something is wrong with demineralized water, but the biologists can't conclusively tell us what. Kind of like smoking, back in the day.

It should be noted that deminerized water is not found in nature, anywhere.
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Old 16-04-2009, 02:19   #30
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How much "pure" water that exists in nature is not the point, the point is how much "pure" water is (has been) drunk by humans. I suggest that over the evolutionary span of humans, not much "pure" water has been readily available but much hard water has been available.
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