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Old 31-03-2016, 11:03   #46
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I think frequently is over-stated.
In todays, rather yesterday's (it's 4am here) Australian Maritime newsletter is an article on just this thing and the 'frequently increasing' deaths in Australia. I live on a small island (compared to the rest of Australia) of 450 000 pop, and a death seems to be occuring almost every year, just on our island. That's pretty damn frequent.
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Old 31-03-2016, 13:57   #47
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
In todays, rather yesterday's (it's 4am here) Australian Maritime newsletter is an article on just this thing and the 'frequently increasing' deaths in Australia. I live on a small island (compared to the rest of Australia) of 450 000 pop, and a death seems to be occuring almost every year, just on our island. That's pretty damn frequent.
In the UK, deaths due to misadventures with LPG (asphyxiation, explosions) exceed all other boating deaths except drowning, and I believe in some years exceeds even that.

LPG on a boat is a very bad idea. My next boat will have an all electric galley.

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Old 31-03-2016, 18:29   #48
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In the UK, deaths due to misadventures with LPG (asphyxiation, explosions) exceed all other boating deaths except drowning, and I believe in some years exceeds even that.

LPG on a boat is a very bad idea. My next boat will have an all electric galley.

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Could it have something to do with the populous no longer feeling it necessary to know the hazards and be smart about the risks?


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Old 31-03-2016, 18:47   #49
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Could it have something to do with the populous no longer feeling it necessary to know the hazards and be smart about the risks?


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Indeed, and I don't think it's limited to the UK.

The root problem with gas on board is that people are accustomed to using natural gas on land, and their habits and thinking around gas are based on that experience.

Unfortunately that experience is completely irrelevant to gas on board a boat. First of all, natural gas as used on land is lighter than air and will dissipate harmless when leaked, unless its somehow confined or very large amounts are leaked.

Second, land houses are not sealed at the bottom, so even LPG is not really a big deal, since if leaked it will usually filter out the cracks under the doors and disappear.

But on a boat, which is sealed on the bottom (otherwise it would sink), even tiny amounts of leaked gas can form what is in essence a fuel air bomb, and boats are blown to smithereens (and people killed) just about every year in the UK.


In my experience most cruiser simply have no idea what they are playing with, with gas on board. "I've used it for x years, and haven't blown up yet, ergo it's completely safe and nothing could ever happen to me", is the typical logic, which of course is fallacious.
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Old 02-04-2016, 21:37   #50
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Immersion heaters run fine from inverters as long as everything is sized and loaded correctly. They are pure resistance loads, which are pleasant for the electronics.

Do you have that much solar?

Not much point running them from an alternator, since you will be getting all the waste heat you can use from the coolant loop, whenever the engine is running. You also have to be very careful not to overload the alternator this way (don't ask me how I know).
Just to get back to this question about inverters. What is the advantage of having a 110v heater or a 240v if i intnd to use an inverter?

And whilst using an inverter, does it help to run the engine like when Im using the windlass for the anchor? (Just in case you don't know, Muir winches recommend running the engine when retrieving the anchor under power).
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Old 02-04-2016, 21:50   #51
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And whilst using an inverter, does it help to run the engine like when Im using the windlass for the anchor? (Just in case you don't know, Muir winches recommend running the engine when retrieving the anchor under power).
I don't understand the relevance of including an inverter in the equation unless you have a AC powered windlass?

I think what Muir are getting at is run your engine so the alternator gives the windlass a boost instead of just sucking the juice out of the batteries, plus you would/could motor (slowly) up to the anchor to take the strain off, I could be wrong though
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Old 03-04-2016, 00:25   #52
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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I don't understand the relevance of including an inverter in the equation unless you have a AC powered windlass?

I think what Muir are getting at is run your engine so the alternator gives the windlass a boost instead of just sucking the juice out of the batteries, plus you would/could motor (slowly) up to the anchor to take the strain off, I could be wrong though
No, i dont have an AC windlass, im talking about a HW tank which come in 110v or 240v options. I want to be able to heat the water whilst away from AC power.
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:32   #53
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Ann,

I think there is a subtle difference between full time live aboard boats and weekenders like ours. Not sure about RC but our boat sits dormant 99% of the time and so I am not as " in touch" with the boat and its systems as a full time live aboard would be. I believe that for a weekender boat such as ours, systems should be engineered and selected to reflect the less than ideal maintenance and observation entailed in such a craft.

Therefore, I elected to remove our gas water heater, from a fully certified system I should add, because I don't feel as in touch with it as I should be to feel I could trust it.

Paranoid? Maybe, I do drive a Volvo after all, but I just didn't feel safe with such a system in a mostly dormant vessel.

Matt


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Matt, (and others),

Just to clear things up a bit about our Paloma vented lpg water heater setup:

1. It does not stay on when not in use. The gas valve at the heater is closed, as well as all the internal valves.

2. It's only use is for our shower, and the shower is the only thing plumbed to the pressure pump (oops... the transom shower, cold only, is also on the pressure pump).

3. When the pressure pump is turned on, a fan also comes on w hich blows cabin air into the head/shower area.

4. The heater is directly vented via a very short 3 inch stack. It is a factory vent system, not a Heath R. set up.

5. There is the usual safety valve that shuts off the gas if the pilot goes out in the short time the heater is in use.

6. The whole gas system (stove, external bbq and water heater) is to code, but has not been recently certified. it was approved in 2003 in NSW when we bought the boat. Being US flagged now, the local authorities have little interest in us. Our insurance has shown no interest in this.

With our operating protocols, I do not fear the system.

Our usage is surely atypical... works for us!

Jim
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:36   #54
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Matt, (and others),

Just to clear things up a bit about our Paloma vented lpg water heater setup:

1. It does not stay on when not in use. The gas valve at the heater is closed, as well as all the internal valves.

2. It's only use is for our shower, and the shower is the only thing plumbed to the pressure pump (oops... the transom shower, cold only, is also on the pressure pump).

3. When the pressure pump is turned on, a fan also comes on w hich blows cabin air into the head/shower area.

4. The heater is directly vented via a very short 3 inch stack. It is a factory vent system, not a Heath R. set up.

5. There is the usual safety valve that shuts off the gas if the pilot goes out in the short time the heater is in use.

6. The whole gas system (stove, external bbq and water heater) is to code, but has not been recently certified. it was approved in 2003 in NSW when we bought the boat. Being US flagged now, the local authorities have little interest in us. Our insurance has shown no interest in this.

With our operating protocols, I do not fear the system.

Our usage is surely atypical... works for us!

Jim
Sounds like a pretty good and safe system then.
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:51   #55
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just to get back to this question about inverters. What is the advantage of having a 110v heater or a 240v if i intnd to use an inverter?

And whilst using an inverter, does it help to run the engine like when Im using the windlass for the anchor? (Just in case you don't know, Muir winches recommend running the engine when retrieving the anchor under power).
Running the immersion heater with an inverter makes sense if you have a lot of solar, or if you have a DC generator. It's very common among people with big solar installations to divert the power to an immersion heater, via an inverter, after the batteries are fully charged.



Doesn't make any sense running the immersion heater from the main engine's alternator, because you get far more heat out of the engine's waste heat, and it's totally free.
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:59   #56
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Running the immersion heater with an inverter makes sense if you have a lot of solar, or if you have a DC generator. It's very common among people with big solar installations to divert the power to an immersion heater, via an inverter, after the batteries are fully charged.

Not sure what you mean with this bit?Doesn't make any sense running the immersion heater from the main engine's alternator, because you get far more heat out of the engine's waste heat, and it's totally free.
I'm not really understanding what you mean by the second paragraph? How 'would' i run the heater from the alternator, even if I wanted too?
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:19   #57
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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I'm not really understanding what you mean by the second paragraph? How 'would' i run the heater from the alternator, even if I wanted too?
Via the inverter.

How else would you do it? You have to have a DC power source: alternator, solar, or DC generator.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense to do it with the engine running, since you will anyway be able to use waste heat, which is much more efficient.

I actually DID run my immersion heater from my alternator last summer, because my coolant loop was hopeless airlocked. I've sorted it now so won't be doing that anymore.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:43   #58
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Via the inverter.

How else would you do it? You have to have a DC power source: alternator, solar, or DC generator.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense to do it with the engine running, since you will anyway be able to use waste heat, which is much more efficient.

I actually DID run my immersion heater from my alternator last summer, because my coolant loop was hopeless airlocked. I've sorted it now so won't be doing that anymore.
When your saying 'from my alternator', then, are you just meaning that the inverter is wired into the house system? The house batteries? Or do you mean it's wired directly to the alternator?
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Old 03-04-2016, 06:00   #59
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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When your saying 'from my alternator', then, are you just meaning that the inverter is wired into the house system? The house batteries? Or do you mean it's wired directly to the alternator?
No, of course it's all wired through the house system.

The alternator puts power into the system so that the inverter can power the immersion heater without flattening the batteries.

A little math:

To raise the temperature of 20 liters of water from 10C to 50C requires roughly 1kW/h of power. This will take roughly 80 minutes with a 750 watt immersion heater.

A 400 amp/hour 12v battery bank contains about 2.5kW/h of usable power. But with Peukert's coefficient, depending on the proportion between the load and the bank capacity, you will not be able to run a heavy load like an immersion heater without flattening it.

Therefore, you need to be feeding the system with power if you're going to draw it off at that rate. A 100 amp alternator might be able to handle such a load.
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Old 03-04-2016, 06:08   #60
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Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just to get back to this question about inverters. What is the advantage of having a 110v heater or a 240v if i intnd to use an inverter?

And whilst using an inverter, does it help to run the engine like when Im using the windlass for the anchor? (Just in case you don't know, Muir winches recommend running the engine when retrieving the anchor under power).
To run an AC water heater through an inverter you'll have to buy a much bigger boat to carry all the batteries you'll need.

Do your calculations here
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