Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-03-2016, 01:39   #31
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I don't doubt whatever the experts on solar hot water systems say. But I'm not raising building a solar hot system. I'm suggesting nothing more than returning 'cold water' that's sitting in the pipes to the water tank it's come from, rather than emptying it down the drain, or in this case out into the sea.

I'm aware there are significant problems with 'evapourative air conditioners' re legionaires disease on the mainland and further up North too. But we don't even have them here for domestic use.
Sorry to harp on this one, but this has nothing to do with evaporative systems or the like, this is purely related to enclosed systems holding water at warmer than normal temperatures. The evaporative towers are a very different kettle of fish with their own problems.

The water you are planning to return to the holding tank has been heated, and what is worse, it has been heated just a little, the worst possible scenario. If it had been heated to 65 degrees plus and HELD there for an hour or so, it would be ok. But it hasn't. It will be the luke warm stuff from the pipes and what was in the heater unit when the whole lot cooled down slowly a few days ago. Everything I have read says send that lot overboard.

I don't want to hammer the point, but I really would not recommend what you are thinking of doing. Boat water tanks are bad enough without that extra bit of complication.

I've said my bit, I don't often get so het up about this sort of thing, but I feel it would be remiss of me to fail to raise a caution.

Matt
__________________

__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 01:47   #32
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,710
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

GILow, and RC,

FWIW, Jim and I have used propane flash heaters for our hot water for 30 yrs, since 1986. We were able to control the solenoid; the heaters were vented, and in the case in this boat is that their is a fan that comes on with the water pump, in addition to the vent. There has never been a problem with our installations. Although the concept may be uncomfortable for you guys, in fact, in our experience, it has worked flawlessly, and with simple plumbing, for years.

RC, not trying to convince you to change, but just wanting to make the point that if the installation is good, so can the experience be.

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 02:04   #33
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
GILow, and RC,

FWIW, Jim and I have used propane flash heaters for our hot water for 30 yrs, since 1986. We were able to control the solenoid; the heaters were vented, and in the case in this boat is that their is a fan that comes on with the water pump, in addition to the vent. There has never been a problem with our installations. Although the concept may be uncomfortable for you guys, in fact, in our experience, it has worked flawlessly, and with simple plumbing, for years.

RC, not trying to convince you to change, but just wanting to make the point that if the installation is good, so can the experience be.

Ann
is your gas instalation an approved one?
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 02:05   #34
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Sorry to harp on this one, but this has nothing to do with evaporative systems or the like, this is purely related to enclosed systems holding water at warmer than normal temperatures. The evaporative towers are a very different kettle of fish with their own problems.

The water you are planning to return to the holding tank has been heated, and what is worse, it has been heated just a little, the worst possible scenario. If it had been heated to 65 degrees plus and HELD there for an hour or so, it would be ok. But it hasn't. It will be the luke warm stuff from the pipes and what was in the heater unit when the whole lot cooled down slowly a few days ago. Everything I have read says send that lot overboard.

I don't want to hammer the point, but I really would not recommend what you are thinking of doing. Boat water tanks are bad enough without that extra bit of complication.

I've said my bit, I don't often get so het up about this sort of thing, but I feel it would be remiss of me to fail to raise a caution.

Matt
Well, if i stick the heater up newr the shower as Dockhead suggests, then I wont need to waste as much or to loop it back to the tank.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 03:09   #35
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Seychelles
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,899
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
is your gas instalation an approved one?
That's the only issue I see with the gas setup. I'm no longer in Australia so it isn't a concern for me.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 05:33   #36
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
GILow, and RC,

FWIW, Jim and I have used propane flash heaters for our hot water for 30 yrs, since 1986. We were able to control the solenoid; the heaters were vented, and in the case in this boat is that their is a fan that comes on with the water pump, in addition to the vent. There has never been a problem with our installations. Although the concept may be uncomfortable for you guys, in fact, in our experience, it has worked flawlessly, and with simple plumbing, for years.

RC, not trying to convince you to change, but just wanting to make the point that if the installation is good, so can the experience be.

Ann

Ann,

I think there is a subtle difference between full time live aboard boats and weekenders like ours. Not sure about RC but our boat sits dormant 99% of the time and so I am not as " in touch" with the boat and its systems as a full time live aboard would be. I believe that for a weekender boat such as ours, systems should be engineered and selected to reflect the less than ideal maintenance and observation entailed in such a craft.

Therefore, I elected to remove our gas water heater, from a fully certified system I should add, because I don't feel as in touch with it as I should be to feel I could trust it.

Paranoid? Maybe, I do drive a Volvo after all, but I just didn't feel safe with such a system in a mostly dormant vessel.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 05:56   #37
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
is your gas instalation an approved one?

There are a variety of opinions about using gas for this purpose. These opinions have been discussed widely and not worth repeating here probably.

Some people have not yet had an explosion and so feel comfortable that nothing could ever happen to them.

Others of us are painfully aware of the fact that LPG has about double the explosive power of TNT per gram, and has a wide range of explosive mixture (from memory 9% to 19%), and that there are a dozen ways it can leak out of such an appliance.

Click image for larger version

Name:	bilde.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	52.5 KB
ID:	121750



But don't worry, it could never happen to you!
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 06:05   #38
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That was one heck of a party.
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 06:27   #39
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
... LPG has ... a wide range of explosive mixture (from memory 9% to 19%) ...
More like 2.1 -to- 9.5%
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 06:59   #40
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
That was one heck of a party.
Believe it or not, before the propane explosion, that was a boat!

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/ar...NEWS/302029987

The owner was killed.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 09:55   #41
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There are a variety of opinions about using gas for this purpose. These opinions have been discussed widely and not worth repeating here probably.

Some people have not yet had an explosion and so feel comfortable that nothing could ever happen to them.

Others of us are painfully aware of the fact that LPG has about double the explosive power of TNT per gram, and has a wide range of explosive mixture (from memory 9% to 19%), and that there are a dozen ways it can leak out of such an appliance.

Attachment 121750



But don't worry, it could never happen to you!
Yes, well as I've already indicated after recent deaths in Tasmania it's left me a little paranoid. Im keeping an LPG stove, but that's the only thing I now intend to have that is LPG and I intend next year to rebuild that system and it to be certified. In the mean time im religiously turning the system off at night and after meals. Most people's boats in Tasmania do not have certified gas systems and no one checks either. It doesnt have to be certified to be registered here, though it could affect your insurance. But my my safety and that of my family, i want mine to be certified.

Im a little surprised when people admit on CF, or as in the case two weeks ago i visited a guy on his boat who had an LPG heater in a cupboard and when in use he just open's the cupboard. It seems like it's playing Riussian roulette with his life. I don't think it would be easy to add a specific water heater flue to my deck either.

But, i entirely agree with Ann, if a system is safe then LPG is a very good way to go. But, a system that is not certified, is most likely, in my opinion, and in the legal sense, not safe.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 10:02   #42
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

I don't know what all the fear is about with a LPG HWH. I chimney mine above deck...No issue. If people vent them inside the boat and expect Carbon Monoxide to magically vent itself through an open hatch is asking for a problem.
I've never installed the AC/Engine types but have bought 2 boats with them onboard. Both were dead and leaking. That and they take up way too much room.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 10:14   #43
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
GILow, and RC,

FWIW, Jim and I have used propane flash heaters for our hot water for 30 yrs, since 1986. We were able to control the solenoid; the heaters were vented, and in the case in this boat is that their is a fan that comes on with the water pump, in addition to the vent. There has never been a problem with our installations. Although the concept may be uncomfortable for you guys, in fact, in our experience, it has worked flawlessly, and with simple plumbing, for years.

RC, not trying to convince you to change, but just wanting to make the point that if the installation is good, so can the experience be.

Ann
Hi Ann...Is the fan inline with the HWH exhaust? If it is, it's a great idea in the event of a back draft which I get on occasion if it's really windy outside. My HWH has a temp solenoid that kicks the gas off if the flame goes out.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 10:23   #44
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I don't know what all the fear is about with a LPG HWH. I chimney mine above deck...No issue. If people vent them inside the boat and expect Carbon Monoxide to magically vent itself through an open hatch is asking for a problem.
I've never installed the AC/Engine types but have bought 2 boats with them onboard. Both were dead and leaking. That and they take up way too much room.
The 'fear' is with improperly installed LPG it can be and is frequently deadly.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2016, 10:50   #45
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Water Heater Placement on a 36 Footer

I think frequently is over-stated.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
men, water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
420: Water maker placement Fearnow Lagoon Catamarans 2 03-03-2015 10:35
Hot Water Heater / Block Heater? - 3GM30 BareProductions Engines and Propulsion Systems 9 23-02-2013 19:12
Best Heater for a 30-Footer ? Amigo Liveaboard's Forum 51 30-08-2012 23:30
Force 10 Diesel Heater vs Taylor 068 Paraffin heater Tailwheel Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 3 23-10-2011 08:54
Gas Water Heater or Combined Calorifier / Immersion Heater ? simonmd Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 5 30-12-2010 08:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.