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Old 28-06-2014, 06:36   #46
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Re: Water Filtration Question

If no one has mentioned it yet (long thread; haven't read it all), the Seagull filters (https://generalecology.com/) are more or less the standard solution in many countries for making safe drinking water out of boat tank water.

These will get rid of bacteria, parasites, cysts, and most viruses, and without wasting water as RO filters do. They are expensive ($600), but pay for themselves pretty fast in saved bottled water or hospital visits.

We sail in Northern Europe where the water is safe everywhere, so we don't bother with a "whole boat" filter. We just filter the tank water with the Seagull to a small tap in the galley for drinking or cooking.

I'm not sure I would do this in third world areas with dodgy water. But here it works fine.
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Old 28-06-2014, 08:54   #47
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Re: Water Filtration Question

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Look nice.

Every winter (where it gets cold) and every time you sanitize, you pop the cartridge out and put the blue shell back on empty. Just turn off the pump, close the tank outlet, and open a tap to depressurize. Hand tight for the housing is enough.

I find it easier to slide a skillet under the filter. Not much water comes out if you keep it up-right, just a few teaspoons.

And look what came out of a dock side hose during just one fill-up today. I swear. I flexed the hose a little to see what would happen (inside of 4" filter). So filter the fill too.


No, they seldom put valves at the taps.
I don't understand what you mean by "close the tank outlet", can you explain that please?

I'm going to do the sanitization today. Should I let the bleach water run through the fridge water line also?

My fresh tank is 350 gallons. Does anyone know how much bleach I should add?

Thanks for the help. That pic is gross, but it reminded me to grab the hose filter. A Home Depot product for the hose should be fine, right?
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Old 29-06-2014, 07:18   #48
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Re: Water Filtration Question

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl View Post

I don't understand what you mean by "close the tank outlet", can you explain that please?

I'm going to do the sanitization today. Should I let the bleach water run through the fridge water line also?

My fresh tank is 350 gallons. Does anyone know how much bleach I should add?

Thanks for the help. That pic is gross, but it reminded me to grab the hose filter. A Home Depot product for the hose should be fine, right?
Usually there's a valve just after your freshwater tank. When you close that temporarily (while you mess with your filter), no additional water is available to your freshwater pump.

In our system, simply turning off the freshwater pump at the AC-DC distribution panel effectively accomplishes the same thing.

Opening the tap then drops the pressure so you can do the filter work.

Were it me, I'd let the bleach water course through the fridge line, too.

I think one of Peggie Hall's posts -- and probably various reposts -- has the recipe proportions.

And were it me again, I'd use the sediment filter I mentioned above (Pentek DGD-2501 in a Big Blue filter housing) when you're filling. I don't think HD carries those (try filtersfast.com) but they may have something that'll get you past your first fill or two.

-Chris
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Old 29-06-2014, 08:47   #49
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Re: Water Filtration Question

^^ ASME 119e (Peggy and everyone quotes this) states 0.13 ounces of houswehold bleach per gallon of water.

Seagull was nice, but it is not ASME or NSF certified to remove anything and is 4-10 the price of systems that are certified. The market has left them behind with an over priced product. As water filtration has grown, prices have dropped, and they have not evolved. Out of date, soon to be irrelevant.
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Old 29-06-2014, 09:25   #50
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Re: Water Filtration Question

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Usually there's a valve just after your freshwater tank. When you close that temporarily (while you mess with your filter), no additional water is available to your freshwater pump.

In our system, simply turning off the freshwater pump at the AC-DC distribution panel effectively accomplishes the same thing.

Opening the tap then drops the pressure so you can do the filter work.

Were it me, I'd let the bleach water course through the fridge line, too.

I think one of Peggie Hall's posts -- and probably various reposts -- has the recipe proportions.

And were it me again, I'd use the sediment filter I mentioned above (Pentek DGD-2501 in a Big Blue filter housing) when you're filling. I don't think HD carries those (try filtersfast.com) but they may have something that'll get you past your first fill or two.

-Chris
Got it, thnx Chris!
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Old 29-06-2014, 09:30   #51
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Re: Water Filtration Question

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^^ ASME 119e (Peggy and everyone quotes this) states 0.13 ounces of houswehold bleach per gallon of water.

Seagull was nice, but it is not ASME or NSF certified to remove anything and is 4-10 the price of systems that are certified. The market has left them behind with an over priced product. As water filtration has grown, prices have dropped, and they have not evolved. Out of date, soon to be irrelevant.
Ok, so I'm looking at about 1/3 a gallon. That doesn't seem like much. But then again, bleach is powerful.
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Old 29-06-2014, 16:54   #52
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Re: Water Filtration Question

This is Peggy Hall's recommendation. Based on this you will need 227 ounces of Chlorox or generic bleach. 1/3 gallon is not enough.


The whole system should be recommissioned annually 
Submitted by Peggie Hall/HeadMistress on 12/19/2003 at 06:58AM regarding General_interest
And if done at least annually, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to drink the water. 

Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places not underwater.

There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. 

Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. 

1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorine solution). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity.

Our tank is 75 gallons plus 6 gallons HWH = 81 – We need 15 gallons of water mixed with 60 ounces of Chlorox – Fill tank and put in 60 ounces (54 would be enough)

Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 

3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours.

4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 

5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 

6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water.

People have expressed concern about using this method to recommission aluminum tanks. While bleach (chlorine) IS corrosive, it’s effects are are cumulative. So the effect of an annual or semi-annual "shock treatment" is negligible compared to the cumulative effect of holding chlorinated city water in the tank for years. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to mix the total amount of bleach in a few gallons of water before putting it into either a stainless or aluminum tank. 

People have also expressed concern about the potential damage to rubber and neoprene water pump parts. Again—the cumulative effect of carrying chlorinated water is far more damaging over time than the occasional “shock treatment.” And it’s that cumulative effect that makes it a VERY bad idea to add a little bleach to each fill. Not only does it damage the system, but unless you add enough to make your water taste and smell like a laundry, it’s not enough to do any good. Even if it were, any “purifying” properties in chlorine evaporate within 24 hours, leaving behind only the corrosive properties. 

An annual or semi-annual recommissioning according to the above directions is all that should be necessary to keep your water tasting and smelling as good as anything that comes out of any faucet on land. If you need to improve on that, install a water filter. Just remember that a filter is not a substitute for system maintenance, and that filters require regular inspection and cleaning or replacement



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Old 29-06-2014, 20:24   #53
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Re: Water Filtration Question

No, that is too much. Peggy has misquoted the ANSI code number and made a math error, IMHO.

The problem with too much bleach is not just the smell; if the solution increases thepH too far, it can actually reduce sanitation effectiveness by reducing free chlorine; Google it.

More is not always better. 1/3 gallon is already about 60 times the normanl disinfection dose.


(this from a Shurflow pump manual--the closest I could quickly find to the ASME spec. Goolge "sanitize bleach ANSI A119.2"

SANITIZING
Sanitizing is recommended prior to storing and before using the water system after storage.
Systems with new components, or ones subjected to contamination, should also be disinfected
as follows:
NOTE:
This procedure is in conformance with the approved procedures of ANSI A119.2.
1. Use one of the following methods to determine the amount of common household bleach
needed to sanitize. A) 1-1/2 ounces of bleach per 10-gallon tank size. Example: 40 gallon
tank = 4 x 1.5 = 6 ounces of bleach. B) Multiply “Liters of tank capacity” by 1.0; the result is
the milliliters of bleach needed to sanitize the tank.
2. Mix the proper amount of bleach within a 1-gallon container of water.
3. Pour the solution (water bleach) into the tank and fill the tank with potable water. Rock
vehicle back and forth to splash water on tank walls an top.
1. Open
all faucets (Hot &Cold) allowing the water to run until the distinct odor of chlorine is
detected.
2. The standard solution must have four (4) hours of contact time to disinfect completely.
Doubling the concentration of bleach allows for contact time of one (1) hour.

When the contact time is completed, drain the tank. Refill with potable water
and purge the plumbing of all sanitizing solution.

NSF and the US Department of Health have reviewed and acepted the ANSI method for food and general sanitation. If I am wrong PLEASE post the refference.
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Old 29-06-2014, 21:39   #54
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Re: Water Filtration Question

Thinwater: I'm no expert on this procedure, but I have used this each spring in my 2003 356 since new in 2003 and have excellent water quality. It takes me quite a bit of flushing to get the chlorine out of the system, usually about three tanks of water plus some flushing. I would like to use less as it would simplify my process. I didn't do it this past spring as I was in Florida for the winter and just returned to Kentucky Lake in the spring. I installed a SafeH20 512 system last summer and will soon replace my filters and UV lamp. When I sanitize again, the carbon filter will take the last of the chlorine out. I installed a bypass for the SafeH20 system for sanitizing.

I will do some further research, but your system certainly uses a lot less bleach than Peggy had recommended. The quote was right off HunterOwners.com forum where Peggy was the host, with the exception of my added sentence concerning my quantity of water and chlorine. I am interested in why more chlorine would reduce the effectiveness of the sanitation? My understanding was that more would be better, not worse, but not based on science, just intuition.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to get this difference sorted out. Thanks for your input. You appear to have a good understanding of the chemistry and biology. I am an Architect, not a chemist.


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Old 29-06-2014, 21:46   #55
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Water Filtration Question

Thinwater: your reference of ANSI 119.2 I for construction standards of Recreational Vehicle, not water quality. Is what you quoted a typo? What is the actual standard from ANSI?

A Guide to ANSI A119.2: A Handbook for Recreational Vehicle Standards


Recreation Vehicle Industry Association (U.S.), American National Standards Institute
Recreation Vehicle Industry Association, 1997 - Recreational vehicles
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I also looked for you ASME reference 119e and that doesn't exist. What are your water quality qualifications?



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Old 29-06-2014, 22:20   #56
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Re: Water Filtration Question

Got this off Jamestown Distributing web site. It is identical to Peggy Hall's process.

Fresh Water System Commissioning & Sanitizing


You should sanitize your fresh water tank, hot water tank and the entire fresh water system at the start of each season. This is especially important if your water has a bad taste or strange odor. A clean sanitized system will greatly reduce the risk of developing coliform bacteria and will help protect the health of everyone onboard.

To sanitize the fresh water system and kill bacteria that may be present do the following:

Fill the fresh water tank half way with fresh water.

Prepare a chlorine solution:
In a container with a gallon of fresh water mix 1/4 cup of household bleach, (5% sodium hypochlorite solution) such as Clorox or Purex, for every 15 gallons of tank capacity.

Pour this mixture into the water tank.

Complete filling of tank with fresh water.
CAUTION: Notify all persons aboard that the fresh water system is being sanitized. Do not allow anyone to drink from the fresh water system during the sanitizing process.


Go for a drive to mix the solution.

Turn on the fresh water pump.

Pump water through each faucet so that the feed lines are filled with the water and bleach mixture from the tank.

Run a quart of water out each faucet. You should be able to smell chlorine strongly at each faucet.

The hot-water tank also holds water. Run the hot water faucets until the capacity of the hot water tank has passed through the system to insure that the old water has been purged from the hot-water tank, and it is now filled with the water and bleach solution from the water tank.

Allow the water and bleach solution to stand in the system for three hours

Drain the entire system, hot water tank included, and then flushes the system with new fresh water.

To remove any excessive chlorine taste or odor that might remain, prepare a solution of one-quart vinegar to five gallons water.

Pump the vinegar solution through the water system and allow this solution to remain overnight.

Drain the system again and flush with fresh water.


Contributed by Capt. Tom Kenny. More can be found on his Chris Craft Constellation website.


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Old 30-06-2014, 10:09   #57
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Re: Water Filtration Question

That is the correct refference and sanitation is included within that title. It is anoying that standards organizations such as ANSI, ASTM, and ASME do not publish code book on the net, but they don't. Broaden your Goolge string to ANSI 119.2 sanitize water" and you will find many refferences to this procedure and US Public Health Service.

Example: Airstream manual quoting same ANSI procedure and refferencing health department.
Airstream NTERSTATE Owner's Manual (Page 65 of 99)

I am a 30 chemical engineer and have designed and built some substancial water and wastewater treatment plants. This topic, is of course, off that specific track. However attacking the the qualifications of the speaker rather than the information is a logical falicy; a better internet search would have led you to many sources of confirmation. I was not claiming expertice, only guiding the reader to an authoritative source of information.

I think you will find that many people have quoted you procedure on the internet; many duplicative citations doesn't make something autoritative. Rather, it suggestes that a great many folks are too lazy to do their own research, back to the source.

I'm sure using more bleach will work. I'm just saying that authoritative sources (ANSI is built of many, many experts that combined know more about this than you, me, and Peggy--I have no difficulty addmiting that) say that 0.13 oz./gallon for several hours is a good procedure. Thus, I follow recognized procedures until given substancial and supported counter evidense. Your post was by Capt. Tom Kenny, who doesn't claim to be a sanitation expert and will probably admit that he got the information from someone else, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
Thinwater: your reference of ANSI 119.2 I for construction standards of Recreational Vehicle, not water quality. Is what you quoted a typo? What is the actual standard from ANSI?

A Guide to : A Handbook for Recreational Vehicle Standards


Recreation Vehicle Industry Association (U.S.), American National Standards Institute
Recreation Vehicle Industry Association, 1997 - Recreational vehicles
0 Reviews

I also looked for you ASME reference 119e and that doesn't exist. What are your water quality qualifications?



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Old 30-06-2014, 12:15   #58
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Water Filtration Question

Couple things.

Be careful of bleach in aluminum tanks. Can cause issues with the tank, and in turn, the water.

Also, check out Doulton water filters. We have used one full time for 6 years now (permanently installed on our cold water tap in the galley) and have put some sketchy water in the tank over the years, and never been sick from anything water related. They use a ceramic element which can be cleaned and used for a long time period, making spares a bit less important when traveling further away, where the water filter is needed more. They make different "candles", we always by the best one.
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Old 30-06-2014, 12:43   #59
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Re: Water Filtration Question

^^ Ceramic filter are nice in that they can be cleaned, and Doulton makes good ones. You can also get ceramic elements for universal housings. In fact, Doulton makes one! NSF 53 cert. Certainly a good choise for the traveler.

Doulton Imperial Sterasyl OBE Ceramic Filter Only $43.85

You do give up the adsoption capacity of carbon. Everything in life is a trade off, but this is a very reasonable one, in the opinion of many.
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Old 30-06-2014, 12:49   #60
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Water Filtration Question

Our tanks are Monel...and I am having difficulty finding info re bleach and Monel. I did find some very esoteric engineer nerd site that seems to indicate that bleach is not recommended for Monel. Does anybody have Monel specific info?

Sorry for the thread drift galaxy girl!
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