Water Filtration Question

[Hud3]

Two pieces of advice given in this thread are worth reiterating...

1. Use Peggy Hall's procedure for re-commissioning your fresh water system. Chuck has summarized it in a post here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post414728

2. Install a filter near your drinking water faucet(s) that's capable of filtering out pathogens. ThinWater seems to have scoped this topic out rather well.

We chose to go the simple route, and used a General Ecology Seagull IV filter for the drinking water in our boat. Some of the water we bought in the Caribbean was of questionable provenance, but we never had any tummy problems. We also installed one in our house on Nevis, where all of our water was collected from the roof and stored in an cistern. Again, never a problem.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Hud3

Two pieces of advice given in this thread are worth reiterating...

1. Use Peggy Hall's procedure for re-commissioning your fresh water system. Chuck has summarized it in a post here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post414728

2. Install a filter near your drinking water faucet(s) that's capable of filtering out pathogens. ThinWater seems to have scoped this topic out rather well.

We chose to go the simple route, and used a General Ecology Seagull IV filter for the drinking water in our boat. Some of the water we bought in the Caribbean was of questionable provenance, but we never had any tummy problems. We also installed one in our house on Nevis, where all of our water was collected from the roof and stored in an cistern. Again, never a problem.

1. "Peggy's Procedure" is really ANSI A119.2 section 10.8 and US Health Department Pollicy. Fundamentally, it is a generic procedure for water storage tanks, addapted to RVs. It is a good procedure. However, it is worth reiterating that it is not the invention ofa single person but rather a long standing and well-reviewed procedure. Many (most?) food processing and pump equipment companys quote it. It's quoted in RV park rules and sump pump manuals... all over, really.


Eventually we'er going to need to start calling it the "ANSI portable tank sanitizing procedure." The problem is that ANSI, like many standardards associtations, makes money selling standards and thus does not make finding them easy. Like ASTM, ISO, AYBC, NFPA... and so forth. If your Google-** is strong you can find them.

[Stu Jackson]

You're right, but regardless of what we want to call it, it's all the same. I linked to it in the last post on page 1, these later ones have different links to the same material.

This is a very helpful thread.

"It's the hoses, stupid!" Plus whatever filtering one deems necessary based on the quality of the intake water system.

IIRC, GG is coming up the east coast from FL to MA.

Originally Posted by thinwater

1. "Peggy's Procedure" is really ANSI A119.2 section 10.8 and US Health Department Pollicy. Fundamentally, it is a generic procedure for water storage tanks, addapted to RVs. It is a good procedure. However, it is worth reiterating that it is not the invention ofa single person but rather a long standing and well-reviewed procedure. Many (most?) food processing and pump equipment companys quote it. It's quoted in RV park rules and sump pump manuals... all over, really.


Eventually we'er going to need to start calling it the "ANSI portable tank sanitizing procedure." The problem is that ANSI, like many standardards associtations, makes money selling standards and thus does not make finding them easy. Like ASTM, ISO, AYBC, NFPA... and so forth. If your Google-** is strong you can find them.

[thinwater]

A question about the "hoses."

I have 15mm PE with quick-connect fittings. After 15 years, the inside of the hose is the same as day 1, and it does not pick up taste. On the other hand, the vent line was clear vinyl, was sticky inside, and had brown gook all over.

Is it this vinyl hose that you are talking about as getting gross? Perhaps any other material would be better, and up-grading to something different at the same time would be smart.

Does this also contribute to taste pick-up from glycol during the winter?
Is this tubing the root of many problems?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Perhaps any other material would be better, and up-grading to something different at the same time would be smart.

FWIW, our internal water lines are PEX, 12 years old, and seem to be in fine condition.

Ours are clear, with red and blue printing (labeling) to discern hot and cold lines. If I were replacing, I think I'd prefer blue PEX for cold water lines and red PEX for hot water lines -- simply as a more easily visible reference -- even though that would eliminate the slightly useful see-through-it-hood-ness.

-Chris

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

FWIW, our internal water lines are PEX, 12 years old, and seem to be in fine condition.

Ours are clear, with red and blue printing (labeling) to discern hot and cold lines. If I were replacing, I think I'd prefer blue PEX for cold water lines and red PEX for hot water lines -- simply as a more easily visible reference -- even though that would eliminate the slightly useful see-through-it-hood-ness.

-Chris

Exactly. PEX, PE, and PVC are examples. No plasticizers. I cut-out a length of PE when installing my water, and it was clean enough to eat off of. When I cut the bit of vinyl I photographed (same age) it was sticky in and out. I ended up re-using it since the store was out of it; anything other than a potable water vent that would have bothered me and I would have been ripping it out and up-grading to a more durable material. As it was I cleaned first (5/16" rope all soaped up, then flossed the hose vigorously--surprisingly easy, fast, and effective).

[Stu Jackson]

Good question. I do not know the answer, since I don't have PEX, and my old lines were a combination of the white non-see-thru plastic hose and what appears to be or similar to this often employed material (both were/are drinking water-safe).

IIRC, Peggie includes it in her book and has discussed in many times in her forum (she's no longer active, she "retired"). Sorry I don't have a link (as I normally do ) but if I find it I'll let you know.

Oh, wait: Trident - the white stuff, maybe #101 - not sure.

As long as the material is drinking water-safe, it shouldn't make a difference, since most "plumbing" is out of sight, out of mind and shouldn't deteriorate. I do understand, however, that PEX or other solid material may well be more suitable for really longer term continuity.

If I were a decade younger (ha! ) I'd have used PEX or similar when I redid my plumbing - done just a few months ago.

Also, "production boat-builders" used the photographed material, or something like it. Seems that means it's "street legal" but not top of the line, right?

So we have three levels of quality: vinyl, PEX and Trident, the last two could switch the order either way.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by thinwater

A question about the "hoses."

On the other hand, the vent line was clear vinyl, was sticky inside, and had brown gook all over.

Is it this vinyl hose that you are talking about as getting gross? Perhaps any other material would be better, and up-grading to something different at the same time would be smart.

Does this also contribute to taste pick-up from glycol during the winter?
Is this tubing the root of many problems?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Good question. I do not know the answer, since I don't have PEX, and my old lines were a combination of the white non-see-thru plastic hose and what appears to be or similar to this often employed material (both were/are drinking water-safe).

IIRC, Peggie includes it in her book and has discussed in many times in her forum (she's no longer active, she "retired"). Sorry I don't have a link (as I normally do ) but if I find it I'll let you know.

Oh, wait: Trident - the white stuff, maybe #101 - not sure.

As long as the material is drinking water-safe, it shouldn't make a difference, since most "plumbing" is out of sight, out of mind and shouldn't deteriorate. I do understand, however, that PEX or other solid material may well be more suitable for really longer term continuity.

If I were a decade younger (ha! ) I'd have used PEX or similar when I redid my plumbing - done just a few months ago.

Also, "production boat-builders" used the photographed material, or something like it. Seems that means it's "street legal" but not top of the line, right?

So we have three levels of quality: vinyl, PEX and Trident, the last two could switch the order either way.

Thanks.

Trident 140 is the white stuff. 101 is the black or white rubber sanitation hose. You would NEVER use that for drinking water as the leaching is unhealthy and plain nasty. I'm also hoping you did not use Trident 140, as it is not a potable water hose.

Lots of great dialog! And I think I learned something I should have already known from other expereinces; soft vinyl absorbs taste and should NEVER be used for potable water because of incompatibility with propylene glycol. In fact, this is known weakness of Trident 140 (slightly increases permeability over time). The only thing I like 140 for is vent lines, since it is available in smaller sizes than 101.

Trident 140 (white sanitation hose) is also vinyl, with different and lesser concentrations of plasticizers. However, it does bleed plasticizer over time, which is why it permeates and gets sticky... like all vinyl hose. But it will outlast the clear stuff.

Street legal? So was leaded gas. I'm guessing if they looked into long-term use of this stuff it would not be, but most lab testing is short term. But I would bet right now that an old sample would not pass NSF.

I don't think your rank-order makes sense for potable water, since several of these are known to leach. Better, there are groups:

a. Known to last over 20 years with no effect. PVC, PEX, PE. Each has strengths and weaknesses, mostly associated with easy of installation. I have personal preferences, but I like all 3 and cannot imagine any of them failing, outside of the sun, before the boat.

b. Hoses with defined life. Most rubber hoses are not NSF certified (REQUIRED for piping by all building codes). Any vinyl hose as limited life. I'll repeat, look for the NSF stamp.

I'm a big believer in hoses where flex is an issue (big lines on seacocks). But they are seldom as permanent and impermeable as solid materials. Their very flexibility comes from chemistry that is less robust. Trident 140, for example, eventually fails and cracks even in cockpit drains (I've seen this).

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks for clarifying those #s.

[GalaxyGirl]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Can't say about the vent location. It should be on the top of the tank, and it could go anywhere (fuel and holding tank vents go to through-hulls, but freshwater tanks often terminate in the cabin).

I did this a while ago, but just posted it:
Sail Delmarva: Freshwater Tank -- Are Bugs Swimming the Back Stroke in There?

Yes, the cartridges go in the housing. The 3G housing takes either style filter. While Home Depot does carry universal housings, they do not carry 3G, which is needed if you ever go for the high-spec filters--and the 3G housing is the same price as the universal. It is also backwards compatible (fits all standard 10" cartridges).

No, Home Depot doesn't carry any of the good filters. It is CRITICALLY important to have the right cartridge, as they serve VERY different purposes; A typical pleated or granulated carbon filter will NOT stop microbes. Filtersfast.com is very good, and much cheaper too.

This is a 5" slimline housing, but you will get better flow with the 10" housing I quoted above. I may switch next time, as I have room for the longer bowl (all I have to switch is the bowl, the beauty of universal housings).


To sumarize, and maybe to clarify some of what I said, clean water has 4 steps:
1. Clean and sanitize the tank.
2. Pre-filter at the hose-end. The hose is probably the greatest risk. The purpose here is just to keep sludge out of the tank.
3. Maintain the tank. Maybe add bleach (a few ppm--get aquarium test tapes if you want to be right). Screen the vent.
4. Filter just before the tap. That's where we talk about 3G housings and sub-micron filters (the NSF P231 filter is rated at 0.019 microns--that's small!). Here is where you fix taste and stop any bugs the chlorine missed. Should taste like, and be as safe as, bottled water when you are done.

This is the very short version, the results of both field and cost research. I know versions that work well and cost 4-40 times more! I'm currently working on 3 articles for Practical Sailor on the topic, and this sort of dialog helps me to understand the questions better. So thank you!

Thinwater, thanks for taking the time to explain all of this to me. It is extremely important stuff. As soon as we arrive to our new-to-us boat I am going to sanitize as described and install the filter. Hopefully someone at Dog River will be available to help me so I don't screw it up

Thanks everyone else for chiming in. You are all very helpful and I appreciate it.

Does anyone know if I can purchase the housing and filters from the West marine store if I walk in or do they have to be ordered online? The cartridge and filter are the same thing, correct?

[GalaxyGirl]

Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Thinwater, thanks for taking the time to explain all of this to me. It is extremely important stuff. As soon as we arrive to our new-to-us boat I am going to sanitize as described and install the filter. Hopefully someone at Dog River will be available to help me so I don't screw it up

Thanks everyone else for chiming in. You are all very helpful and I appreciate it.

Does anyone know if I can purchase the housing and filters from the West marine store if I walk in or do they have to be ordered online? The cartridge and filter are the same thing, correct?

Never mind about the West Marine question. I just ordered the 10" housing and the $100 filter online. It should be there by the time we arrive the week after next. West Marine should carry fittings, right?

I will purchase the hose filter at Walmart when we arrive at Dog River.

Thanks again, for the great info. I really appreciate it. I would have ran straight to Depot and bought some junk

[thinwater]

^^ West Marine is a good bet for fittings, not knowing what you piping type is. They seem pretty good for common stuff.

Let us know how it works out! Feed-back is great!

[Stu Jackson]

WM sells marine stuff. In many cases their pricing is reasonable, in some cases it is not. Figure out what you need and check online for pricing, even if you're going to a brick & mortar store. If it is less expensive elsewhere, your wallet, your choice. My favorite boat store is my local ACE hardware store. This is one of the basic 101s of boat ownership: WM might be your last choice.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Trident 140 is the white stuff. ... I'm also hoping you did not use Trident 140, as it is not a potable water hose.

Lots of great dialog! And I think I learned something I should have already known from other expereinces; soft vinyl absorbs taste and should NEVER be used for potable water because of incompatibility with propylene glycol. In fact, this is known weakness of Trident 140 (slightly increases permeability over time). The only thing I like 140 for is vent lines, since it is available in smaller sizes than 101.

Trident 140 (white sanitation hose) is also vinyl, with different and lesser concentrations of plasticizers. However, it does bleed plasticizer over time, which is why it permeates and gets sticky... like all vinyl hose. But it will outlast the clear stuff.

Our two freshwater tanks are both outboard, connected by a crossover hose from the fill (port) tank to the pump (starboard) tank. I replaced the original hose with Shields heavy duty VAC white sanitation hose (series 148) which is recommended for potable water applications. (see here http://www.seastarsolutions.com/wp-c...nal-LowRes.pdf for example ref.)

Don't know if this is like Trident 140 or not...

-Chris

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Our two freshwater tanks are both outboard, connected by a crossover hose from the fill (port) tank to the pump (starboard) tank. I replaced the original hose with Shields heavy duty VAC white sanitation hose (series 148) which is recommended for potable water applications. (see here http://www.seastarsolutions.com/wp-c...nal-LowRes.pdf for example ref.)

Don't know if this is like Trident 140 or not...

-Chris

OK for fill lines, but this is not useful for general purpose potable water use:
1. Not for pressure.
2. Not for propylene glycol. Vinyl hose leaching is increased when used with glycol.
3. "FDA formula" is not the same as FDA aproved or NSF certified. Standard vendor mumbo gumbo. Not a certified hose.
4. The FDA formulation was probably not tested with glycol, because it is specifically not rated for glycol.

Seatech, on the other hand is NSF list for potable water.
SEATECH PRODUCTS Quick Connect Plumbing Fittings | West Marine. Not just FDA formula," but independently tested and certified. Likewise, PVC pipe from Home Depot is NSF certified.

Some vinyl is. Most hoses are not.

So I believe there is a lot of non-potable and non-certified plumbing in boats. And yes, the manufacturers do that, because they feel they are exempt from home plumbing codes. Ask, and that is the answer you will get.