Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2011, 10:50   #1
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Water Filtration

On another thread water filtration came up.

Someone mentioned a Seagull and several people suggested there were equally good, more affordable alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cburger View Post
The Pur faucet mounted cartridge filter with their highest level purification cartridge. Very reasonably priced and the purification standard keeps improving all the time. Their latest filter is even addressing the little known issue of pharmacuetical's in the water supply. Home Depot, Lowes, BJ's, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
That's a lot of bucks when you can add an inline charcoal fiilter.......i2f
I am about to buy a Seagull, so if this is true, I would love to save a very large amount of money. However my understanding is these type of filters can only be used on safe drinking water. They only filter water and do not purify water (remove Hepatitis A, rotavirus, Norwalk virus, Cholera, E. coli, Salmonella, etc).

Am I mistaken? Am I wasting my money if I buy a $600 filter?
__________________

RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 11:17   #2
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
If I had $600 to spend on a filter, I'd probably be inclined to just save up for a watermaker instead.

You can kill those germs with a a little chlorine bleach, then, the lower cost filtration should do a good enough job of removing the little bit of bleach flavor.

I'm on my phone now so can't look up the specs, but most of them will filter stuff as small as giardia and other microscopic critters.

You could install a prefilter going into the tank, on the deck fill pipe (10 micron). Then add an appropriate amount of bleach to the tank to kill everything, let the tank stand open long enough for the bleach to disapate. The. Use a simple filter at the faucet, or inline, both for added protection and to remove the remaining bleach taste.

All that would cost less than $200 even with the 'nice' cheaper filters...
__________________

__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 12:29   #3
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,546
Images: 1
Re: Water Filtration

I have a background in water purification, when I posted the info on the Pur faucet filters it was not with the thought in mind that you are trying to treat highly bacterially polluted water, it was to answer your original question as to what would be a alternative to the very expensive Seagull filter.

Quality water "Filters" usually have a NSA test data page that indicate what specific chemicals, bacterias, pharmicuticals, etc and at what percentage of these they will remove.

The Clean Water Act of 1977 Clean Water Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was the regulation of the day that specifies what are the allowable chemicals and pollutants and at what percentages they can remain in your city's drinking water. The problem is that there are 1000s of pollutants that have been addressed in the water stream that are not addressed by the act and therefore not being addreessed by municipal water treatment facilities. Knowing what I know about the issues with the water being delivered from the tap I would never consume the water from my house that was not final filtered with a very broad spectrum quality filter.

Now back to the PUR facet, my reason for utilization of this product is that it mounts very easily on the end of the tap and with the cartridge type I am currently using removes a very broad spectrum of things that are very bad for you, including some bacterial and microbial isseus.

There are some very good additional manufacturers of quality filtration and outlets on the internet that will provide all the information one could require to make an informed, "Safe" decision.

To answer your final question regarding is $600.00 a good way to spend my dollars to have safe drinking water on the boat, my instinct is the money can be better spent. One of the problems that I see with the Seagull is that it is designed to be installed in the drinking water circuit
not at the end of it, i.e on the end of a faucet. In theory this would still allow bad stuff like bacteria to grow in these sections of pipe berfore final delivery. I may wrong but I don't think the Seagull is considered a true broad spectrum filter and I advise you to know what water contamination issues you feel you will be facing and make sure your trreatment is up to the task.

In closing if you really think that you will be using water from unknown, untreated sources it is possible to set up miniature water filtration plants for the marine, environment. Something along the lines or reverse osmosis and ultra violet sterilization, these come at a price in dollars and energy to run. If your water source is potable from the marina into your tanks a good final filter should be all that is required. Think the price of the PUR is about $45.00, plus the yearly cost of cartridges, much cheaper than bottles.
__________________
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 13:43   #4
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
Re: Water Filtration

What cburger said!

and

Filtratrion is not generally effective against bactereia. In general, water filters remove only specific types of substances, and are labelled for what they will remove, such as chlorine or lead.
Most water filters do not remove microorganisms; and, are intended for use with water that is known to be microbiologically safe.
The most common and undisputed method of bacteria destruction is chemical oxidation and disinfection.
Ozone injection into a water supply is one form of chemical oxidation and disinfection. A residual of 0.4 mg/i must be established and a retention time of four minutes is required.
Chlorine injection is the most widely recognized method of chemical oxidation and disinfection. Chlorine must be fed at 3 to 5 ppm to treat for bacteria and a residual of 0.4 ppm of free chlorine must be maintained for 30 minutes in order to meet US EPA standards.
Reverse Osmosis will remove over 99% of the bacteria in a drinking water system.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 13:56   #5
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Water Filtration

That all helps, but I still have a few more questions. My intended use is to be able to take on water anywhere in the world (including rain water) and feel confident I can drink it without getting sick. I assume this will be from "portable" water, but I have gotten sick many times from "potable" water in many parts of the world (or at least municipal water supplies).

Are you saying info like this: http://generalecology.com/info/techmemocert is wrong? Just not enough "Purification"? All well and good, but there Is a better way?
RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 15:04   #6
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,546
Images: 1
Re: Water Filtration

Your quest to be able to drink fresh water from questionable sources is a noble one. I am also interested in ultimately being able to make clean, pure water anywhere I may need to, all with the energy I make myself.

If you are truly looking to be able drink water from any source reverse osmosis "RO" with quite likely Ultra Violet for final disenfection. The problem with marine water makers is they are basicly scaled down R.O systems that are really designed as open water desalinators, not to be able to take filthy oil saturated, polluted source water, if so you run the risk of destroying expensive. membranes. Municipal R.O. systems get around this by running sophisticated prefiltration systems to protect the multi million dollar R.O. unit with a team of technicians that moniter the production around the clock.

All of this hardware requires space and energy to run it as well as some skill and expertise not to get yourself sick. I have asked the question in the past about using polluted river water as the source to a marine R.O
and the answers that came back where undifinitive. I suspect that the prefiltration side of the equation will have to be sorted out.

There are outfits like Katydin that make small water purification devices that allow expeditions into some of the darker places of the world to utilize bacterial tainted water for drinking, you might want to look into the technology.

Regarding drinking rain water a simple experiment would be to catch some in a pail, pump it through a PUR filter and have it sent out to a lab to be tested for potability, not that expensive and see what youv'e got.

While clorine has been one of the most widely used meathods of disenfection it is a double edged sword. Chlorine is a very powerful free radical and the data is out there on the effects of continually drinking and bating in the chemical, something I try to avoid.
__________________
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 15:12   #7
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Re: Water Filtration

my boat came with the seagull IV Im happy with it. Filters are pricey but comparing the 1000 gallon rating with the per cartidge cost of the pur rf-999-6 with a 100 gallon rating its close. So its not so bad cost wise if you already have the gear. I could not find quite the detail of filtering from Pur as is available for seagull. United States EPA Standards for water purification systems. Seagull IV water purifiers. here is what i found for PUR didnt look hard http://www.fridgefilters.com/pur-3-s...f9999-6pk.html.
One thing that is not clear is what the effect of operating these below the minimum pressure. Using a hand pump I doubt I am getting the 25 to 30 psi listed as the minimum pressure. With pressure water I am probably close but not sure I am sustaining that kind of pressure in my system.
What if any effect is there from operating at lower then the listed minimum pressure?
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 15:32   #8
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,546
Images: 1
Re: Water Filtration

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
my boat came with the seagull IV Im happy with it. Filters are pricey but comparing the 1000 gallon rating with the per cartidge cost of the pur rf-999-6 with a 100 gallon rating its close. So its not so bad cost wise if you already have the gear. I could not find quite the detail of filtering from Pur as is available for seagull. United States EPA Standards for water purification systems. Seagull IV water purifiers. here is what i found for PUR didnt look hard PUR RF-9999-6 3-Stage Faucet Filter Replacement Cartridge (6-Pack) - Buy Today at FridgeFilters.com.
One thing that is not clear is what the effect of operating these below the minimum pressure. Using a hand pump I doubt I am getting the 25 to 30 psi listed as the minimum pressure. With pressure water I am probably close but not sure I am sustaining that kind of pressure in my system.
What if any effect is there from operating at lower then the listed minimum pressure?
Filter replacement cost definately needs to be factored into the equation. However I am suspect of units that are meant to be installed and forgotton about, the whole idea of filtration is that you are removing something from the water stream and logic dictates that a specific sized canister can only hold so much waste product. I do not have a horse in this race, however personally I am more comfortable replacing filters as required and knowing I am always getting safe water. The PUR line of filters take a variety of different filters depending on the level of purification required. There is a big differnce in systems that are advertised as "Odor and Taste" improvers like a Brita pitcher and broad spectrum units.
__________________
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 06:11   #9
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Re: Water Filtration

After doing a considerable bit of research and using water filters for health protection for nine years, I'm firmly in the Seagull IV camp.

We had one on the boat and never worried about the water we took on board. We now have on here in our kitchen, as our water source is rain off the roof into a cistern. I would love to find an equally effective, cheaper alternative, but haven't so far. The Seagull IV is EPA certified to remove 99.99999% of water-borne bacteria, cysts and viruses. It does not allow bacteria to grow. I haven't found any other product that can make those claims. We replace our filter about every year and a half. Think of it as insurance, just as you would your ground tackle. Would you go cheap and risk what could happen?

Charcoal filters purchased and Lowes or Home Depot will make the water taste better, and if fine enough can remove most cysts, but do nothing to remove bacteria and viruses. Putting chlorox in the tank will kill bacteria and viruse, but cysts, especially cryptosporidium, are notoriously resistant to disinfection.

But don't listen to me or anyone else with "opinions". Do the research yourself. Here's a link to start with...

Point of Use Water Purifier is not a Point of Entry Water filter
__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 08:51   #10
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Water Filtration

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
If I had $600 to spend on a filter, I'd probably be inclined to just save up for a watermaker instead.

You can kill those germs with a a little chlorine bleach, then, the lower cost filtration should do a good enough job of removing the little bit of bleach flavor.

I'm on my phone now so can't look up the specs, but most of them will filter stuff as small as giardia and other microscopic critters.

You could install a prefilter going into the tank, on the deck fill pipe (10 micron). Then add an appropriate amount of bleach to the tank to kill everything, let the tank stand open long enough for the bleach to disapate. The. Use a simple filter at the faucet, or inline, both for added protection and to remove the remaining bleach taste.

All that would cost less than $200 even with the 'nice' cheaper filters...

I did typesetting on a textbook for dental hygiene students.

It made the point, very convincingly, that objects cannot be perfectly sterilized. All you can do is the best you can do to approximate that goal, but germs will lurk in tiny crevices that bleach and even high heat may not affect. So autoclaving is much better than not, and bleach is much better than not, but you will not be guaranteed 100% sterility no matter what you do.

At some point you reach a point of diminishing returns, and I think that's the point where you would look hard at spending big amounts of money.

Rain water isn't clean either. Raindrops form around little bits of dust or other kinds of dirt in the air.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 09:30   #11
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,762
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Water Filtration

bleach does NOT kill everything.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 10:43   #12
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
Re: Water Filtration

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
bleach does NOT kill everything.
Because bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is effective against a wide range of bacteria, fungi, and viruses, EPA has registered sodium hypochlorite for use in the sanitization and disinfection of household premises, food processing plants, and agricultural settings. However, bleach is not a sterilant.

A "sanitizer" is a substance that significantly reduces the bacterial population in the inanimate environment, but does not destroy or eliminate all bacteria or other microorganisms.

A "disinfectant" is a substance that destroys or eliminates a specific species of infectious or other public health microorganism, but not necessarily bacterial spores, in the inanimate environment.

A "sterilant" is a substance that destroys or eliminates all forms of microbial life in the inanimate environment, including all forms of vegetative bacteria, bacterial spores, fungi, fungal spores, and viruses.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 11:30   #13
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Water Filtration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
I would love to find an equally effective, cheaper alternative, but haven't so far. The Seagull IV is EPA certified to remove 99.99999% of water-borne bacteria, cysts and viruses. It does not allow bacteria to grow. I haven't found any other product that can make those claims.
That is where I am at. Seagull seems to be the cheapest filter to purify water of bacteria and viruses, which for my use is a mandatory feature.

As to the pressure question above, I was planning on maintaining my foot pump water system and adding the seagull as a new pressure system with a pump that generates the appropriate PSI. Since that pump will only feed the drinking water tap, it should not eat much power or waste any water.

RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 11:56   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cayuga Lake NY - or on the boat somewhere south of there
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,096
Re: Water Filtration

The conventional wisdom I received from decades of living overseas was that filters may eliminate bacteria but they are not reliable for viruses which are much much smaller. That may not be true with modern age filters but it has worked for me as a rule to live by (as in, "dont drink the water")
__________________
sck5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 12:42   #15
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Re: Water Filtration

The modern filters are much more effective, but all are not equally effective on the various potential contaminants.

The PUR filter for example does a good job of removing particles down to the size of microbial cysts, but doesn't remove bacteria nor viruses. Since bacteria and viruses are susceptible to chlorination, but cysts can be resistant, I'd only use the PUR if I regularly and consistently added chlorine to my water storage tank. Since my tank was aluminum, I couldn't do that, so the Seagull IV was the best alternative for me, since it takes everything out without my having to do a thing but change the filter every 1,000 gallons or so. The fact that the filter has been certified by the US EPA was a factor, as well.

Here's a chart from the NaturePure website that compares attributes...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	seagull structured matrix.jpg
Views:	311
Size:	435.6 KB
ID:	32396  
__________________

__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low Water Flow on A/C Discharge four winds Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 17 19-04-2012 18:17
Water Hose from Water Heater Pacific Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 35 21-02-2012 00:47
Household vs Marine-Specific Water Filtration Systems Punx Provisioning: Food & Drink 0 29-08-2011 15:09
Mini-Freakout in the Water dinosaur Off Topic Forum 9 15-08-2011 19:23
Converting Water to Fuel Don1500 Liveaboard's Forum 12 05-08-2011 19:55



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.