Washing machines, graywater, energy

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Juho

...

Maybe one could use sea water, and only rinse in fresh water. But maybe this is already too complex, and you would be already almost back in the plunger and bucket method .

Seawater is a terrible cleaner though. Any you'd need extra rinses to remove it all

Originally Posted by Chotu

What are some larger washer/dryer combo machines that are vented? I just found a ton of space for one.

Space requires a front loading model.

Front loading machines are the only ones even worth considering. Top loads are poor at cleaning and the massive agitator in the middle is rough on clothes. They tend to just wrap around it. I'm always bemused to see so many top loaders in the US. Anyone know why they are preferred there?

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Ok! So, running from the batteries, this would be 100W * 0.5h = 500Wh of 220V "inverted" power? And adding 20% inversion loss it would be about 50Ah of 12V power?

As far as energy goes, this would basically match "normal" machines with 110 kWh yearly consumption (I think yearly is counted as x 220 cycles), so less than half of the A+++ rated consumption. Nice!



I think the culture over here (the Baltic Sea) has groomed me and other people to be very sensitive about anything "foreign" that is let out into the sea. And this is so especially in marinas, where other people can see what you are doing. (Kind of like this: https://www.sailorsforthesea.org/pro...uide/graywater)

It's actually a lot less than 50ah. It is rated A+ at 109kw a year, but that is on a 60c program, so includes heating water, and running for a much longer duration. Since the water where I'll be going should already be close to 30c (my water tanks are in the mini keels), I'll be running it without heat. In such usage, a cycle consumes more like 15ah. The inveter motor is biggest energy draw, but the motor is probably only running for 60% of the 29min wash cycle, and at full power for much less than that.

As for the grey water, I was trying to say is that if you do your washing in a bucket, then what do you do with the grey water? Whatever the answer is, it shouldn't be any different because you use a washing machine.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

As for the grey water, I was trying to say is that if you do your washing in a bucket, then what do you do with the grey water? Whatever the answer is, it shouldn't be any different because you use a washing machine.

We did/do all our washing ashore

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Seawater is a terrible cleaner though. Any you'd need extra rinses to remove it all



Front loading machines are the only ones even worth considering. Top loads are poor at cleaning and the massive agitator in the middle is rough on clothes. They tend to just wrap around it. I'm always bemused to see so many top loaders in the US. Anyone know why they are preferred there?

Original Amel equipment was a top loading washing machine, but the euro style of top loader, which is basically an inexpensive front loader high centrifuge low water drum with a trapdoor to open it up from the side (top). Fit under a lifting countertop, like some boat fridges. This style is certainly an option still...

[a64pilot]

Top loaders are actually more efficient and many don’t have the agitator in the middle. Plus and I know you will argue this but front loaders often hold some water and it begins to smell.
Don’t believe me, just google front loader washing machine smell and see for yourself.

We don’t use ours in a marina, mostly because we don’t have a drier and they don’t want to see laundry hanging out.
The machine uses surprisingly little power and surprisingly a lot of water, I’m usually making water when we wash clothes so I don’t know how I measured it once and forgot, but it’s a lot. Of course when we wash, we wash several loads.
We cruise in warm weather and don’t need a drier, and our washing machine spin cycle is very efficient with removing water.

Of course this is home sized machines and not our little ones but a lot of it is the same
https://www.consumerreports.org/top-...y-top-loaders/

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

We cruise in warm weather and don’t need a drier, and our washing machine spin cycle is very efficient with removing water.

I'm not sure what washer you have in you boat, but what rpm does your machine do in the spin cycle?

I wish you could see the amount of water we can spin out of clothes after it is spun dry in a normal wash machine. Typically w/our 3200 rpm high speed spinner we can get an extra pint to a quart of water than a normal wash machine. The worse thing is it's still soapy.

We do the high speed spin after the wash and rinses (~2 min duration) and we get out a lot of soap/dirt that normally would be left behind in a normal washer and uses a lot less water in the process.

While it's called a spin dryer, it still has to be hung out to dry. Similar to you we cruise in warm weather and don't need a drier. We also don't hang our clothes outside to dry, but place a folding drying rack under the forward hatch. Here they are dry in 2 hrs and we don't look like a gypsy boat. Bedding and sheets are too large for the rack and we do need to hang them outside. Luckily w/the spin drier, they only need to be hanging for ~30 min. before they are dry.

The size of this spinner is similar to a large kitchen trash can, weighs 22 lbs, can be run off a small inverter and can spin the same amount of clothes that fits into a standard top load (13 lbs). IMO, this is efficient.

Bill O.

[mikedefieslife]

Soapiness has absolutely nothing to do with spinning. That is to do with rinsing. If you are getting soapy water when you spin you need to run extra rinse cycles in your wash, use less detergent, softer water, or better detergent, and/or load the machine less.

As to spinners. Yep I used one in my student digs. It would remove an extra 1l of water maybe more from clothes that were spun at 1000rpm in our old washing machine. In warmer climates and winds of less than 10knts is not an issue though.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Top loaders are actually more efficient and many don’t have the agitator in the middle. Plus and I know you will argue this but front loaders often hold some water and it begins to smell.

Pretty much 99% of the articles on the subject state that front loaders use less, water, less power, are more gentle on clothes. As to cleaning better that is probably a little less but still most report it. Even Samsung's own website claims front loaders to be more efficient and it sells both types.

Personally I've never come across a smell, but do acknowledge that you might find a table spoon of water in the rubber seal. I suppose if you don't do another wash for 3-4 weeks (less in hot climates) it might start to smell and get a little mould. At home I used to run a cycle a week.

[a64pilot]

I have no idea about the RPM of ours, it’s a Haier. It spins the water out better than our house washer.

Ref front vs top loader, what really matters is how it’s mounted and which type allows best access. But the take away is that there are better top loader designs now than the ones we grew up with as kids. Ours simply sits on the second head, and drains into the sink. Our sink drain has exposed threads inside of it, I got a PVC nipple that screws into it and the drain hose simply slips over the nipple.
If I want to remove the machine I remove the ratchet strap that hold it in place, remove the drain nipple, unplug the machine and disconnect the water supply, which is our heads fresh water supply

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Soapiness has absolutely nothing to do with spinning. That is to do with rinsing. If you are getting soapy water when you spin you need to run extra rinse cycles in your wash, use less detergent, softer water, or better detergent, and/or load the machine less.

As to spinners. Yep I used one in my student digs. It would remove an extra 1l of water maybe more from clothes that were spun at 1000rpm in our old washing machine. In warmer climates and winds of less than 10knts is not an issue though.

As a scientist I will politely disagree w/you statement that the higher speed spin is not going to reduce soapiness. Yes you could rinse more, but where is the efficiency if you start doing that?

Your own experience w/a spinner showed it would remove an extra 1L of water. If you did the spin after the wash, then you would get more soap, water and dirt out of the cloths. Subsequent rinses/spins (usually we do 2 after the wash) will continue to remove more water (etc). and leave less residua soap and dirt in the clothes.

Bill O.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Bill O

As a scientist I will politely disagree w/you statement that the higher speed spin is not going to reduce soapiness. Yes you could rinse more, but where is the efficiency if you start doing that?

Your own experience w/a spinner showed it would remove an extra 1L of water. If you did the spin after the wash, then you would get more soap, water and dirt out of the cloths. Subsequent rinses/spins (usually we do 2 after the wash) will continue to remove more water (etc). and leave less residua soap and dirt in the clothes.

Bill O.

Soap and dirt should be removed during the wash and the rinse. Ok perhaps every last trace won't be, but the vast majority otherwise what was the point in washing in the first place?

This is why some machines have a 'baby' cycle. It ads an extra rinse to ensure that the detergent is mostly gone. The type of detergent, the amount and the hardness of the water all play a part too.

This talk does remind me a bit of the scene in Pulp Fiction when Vincent and Juels when drying their hands of washing blood and brains off them. Juels washes he hands well. When he dries them the towel is still white. Vincent does a poor job. When he uses the towel it is red.

Anyhow this all getting a little off topic.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have no idea about the RPM of ours, it’s a Haier. It spins the water out better than our house washer.

If its the Haier HLP21N that we looked at and discussed in our laundry article, then its only has a 700 rpm spin cycle. Good features for that machine it can be run off the inverter and it uses 2-7gal./load.


Bill O.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Soap and dirt should be removed during the wash and the rinse. Ok perhaps every last microscopic trace won't be, but the vast majority otherwise what was the point in washing in the first place?

Can't disagree that one expects the wash to remove soap and dirt, but how do you know?
It wasn't until we started using this high speed spinner to see how inefficient some "high efficiency" wash machines really functioned. We aren't even talking about microscopic traces here, the water we spun out was both dirty and soapy.
I have no gain here, just pointing out what we found.


Bill O.

[Juho]

We have an old spinner (not in a boat) that definitely removes more water from the laundry than a regular washing machine does. If saving water has high priority, a spinner or a washing machine that spins fast could be useful. I made some calculations on how much one could save rinsing water that way.

Rinsing laundry consists of three phases. First amount x of water is added, then it is "mixed in" for a while, and then the water is removed so that there will be only amount y of water left in the laundry. This process may be repeated multiple times. Before rinsing starts, the laundry will contain amount y of soapy water (after removing most of the washing water). After each rinsing round the amount of soap in the laundry will be y/(y+x) times the amount of soap after previous round. When comparing method 2 to method 1, we can say that method 2 is ((y1/(y1+x1))^r1 * y1) / ((y2/(y2+x2))^r2 * y2) times more efficient than method 1 (in removing soap).

Let's say we have a washing machine that leaves twice the amount of water (y1) in the laundry than a spinner does (y2 (=y1/2)). When rinsing, both machines add 13*y1 water (= x1 = x2) at each round. After three rounds of rinsing the washing machine has 1/2744 of the original (after washing water was removed) soap left in the laundry, and 1/38416 of the soap after four rounds. The spinner has 1/19683 of the soap left after three rounds, but since it has only half of the amount of water left, it has 1/39366 of the amount of washing machines(!) original soap left. The spinner is thus about 14,3 times more efficient than the washing machine after three rounds, but after the washing machine rinses the fourth time, they are about equally efficient (about 1/39000 of the y1 soap left).

Both machines used 39*y1 of water in three rinsing rounds. In the fourth round the washing machine used additional 13*y1 of water, which makes 52*y1 in total, which is about 33% more than what the spinner used.

The rinsing process can thus be made more efficient by making y smaller.

The rinsing process can be made more efficient also by making x smaller, if we assume that the total amount of rinsing water stays the same (this means more rinsing rounds). Automated machines may be more willing than humans to do repeated rinsing rounds with relatively small amount of water. There are however some limits to this, since too many rounds, and rounds with too little water, may cause wear to the laundry.

It would be nice to have a spinning machine in the boat. It would take care of some of the most tedious phases of washing clothes. I could take care of the washing phase by towing a plastic barrel (with laundry, warm water and soap) behind the boat for a while . But of course, if I'd have a washing machine with the same spinning speed, not much more weight, and full automation, that would be even better.

Fast spin would also reduce drying time, and energy required by the drying machine. Your needs may vary here.

The results of the calculations are not guaranteed to be correct, and the parameter values that I used in the example are just random values. Maybe someone will double check the used formulas. The cruisers forum software ate my first version of this mail (when I tried to move to he advanced view after spending too much time in the basic view), but I hope this one has about the same content .

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Bill O

If its the Haier HLP21N that we looked at and discussed in our laundry article, then its only has a 700 rpm spin cycle. Good features for that machine it can be run off the inverter and it uses 2-7gal./load.


Bill O.

It is I believe the HLP21N, and it may be only 700 RPM, but remember it’s rotational velocity that determines G force not RPM, but either way it gets the clothes very dry, so much so that on average by the time it’s done with the third load, it’s time to bring in the first cause it’s dry.
I believe by the time it goes through all cycles it also uses more than 7 gls of water.
I wasn’t as impressed with the Splendide myself, not for what they cost. The Haier is supposed to wear it’s belt out pretty quick so we have a spare, but so far it hasn’t needed it. I also have a spare water level sensor as it seemed to stop working but I fiddled around with it and it works now. I think it may have trapped a bit of water in a low spot of the line, but that’s a guess as it works fine now.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It is I believe the HLP21N, and it may be only 700 RPM, but remember it’s rotational velocity that determines G force not RPM, but either way it gets the clothes very dry, so much so that on average by the time it’s done with the third load, it’s time to bring in the first cause it’s dry.

Yes, I understand G force and in this case is similar to a centrifuge we used to spin down samples. It does come down to rpm and rotor size (or in this case drum size. Don't have the direct measurement of the Haier drum (but for this purpose we'll say its 16" dia.) w/700 rpm. the G force for the Haier is ~111. The spin drier has a 10" drum and at 3,200 rpm develops a G force of ~ 1,457.

Do want to hear more about your usage/issues w/the Haier as this type of washer may be in our future for a more automated system. My biggest stumbling block at this point w/these machines is the low spin speed and the relatively higher water usage.

At this point, we don't find it to much of a toil to do our wash w/the bucket and spin drier. With this process we don't have run the gen and we can run 2 loads (buckets) while we are sailing.


Bill O.

[YANDINA]

A really GOOD idea that was a DISASTER.

Living on board with a washing and drying machine for 14 years was fabulous.

I had a great idea - save the grey water from the washing machine - nice soapy slightly dirty water - and use it for toilet flushing instead of sea water. We already had a 250 gallon grey water tank, it only took a little plumbing to hook it up with a selector valve to one of the heads.

What a disaster, the holding tank was heavily infested with black algae, probably being nourished by the soap. Nothing I could do would kill the algae and flushing the toilet with black stinky water is not an option.