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Old 27-11-2012, 03:38   #16
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
An electric heater puts 100% of the heat directly into the water -- the heating element is directly in the water.

Heat from diesel has to be transported which limits the amount which can be put into the water.

However, your real life experience trumps my armchair skepticism -- if it works, it works -- very cool. I might try something like that myself. I can't believe you can get two endless showers out of it -- unbelievable. Love to have that on my boat.

My problem is that my boat was built with a 50 liter calorifier which died last spring, and I could only replace it with a 32 liter calorifier due to the shape of the space it goes into under the raised salon sole. It's not enough for a boat with 7 bunks not counting the salon. Hot showers were kind of a problem this summer when the boat was full of people.

People who sail in the tropics don't really understand what a problem this is for those of us in colder climates

That device might really be a good addition if it really works as you say, and if -- IF -- I can find a space for it. I could plumb it into the hydronic system ahead of all the fan coils so it "steals" all the heat when it's being used. What are the dimensions of it?
They are quite small, actually. In this link note that they are rated for the pumps capacity, at 4 GPM to 100 GPM. 100!





http://suremarine.com/manuals/assort...n/everhot2.pdf
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:27   #17
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I have installed on two occasions in the past two years twin coil calorifiers. One a 30 litre with Webasto and 1kw electric element and recently a 75 litre with Eberspacher (5kw) and 3kw element. Both also heat from the engine coolant circuit. Both installed with a heat exchanger in an attempt to get continuous hot water. Both had hot water flow rates of about 9 ltrs/min. My thoughts from one who likes a long hot shower are:

- no real difference between the Webasto and Eberspacher.
- can nearly but not quite get continuous hot water. However it will always give 'luke warm' water, say 30 deg C. A small break before the next show will give lots of hot water.
- 30 - 60 mins running from cold with the diesel heater alone will give 4-8 hot showers.
- the electric element is always very slow to heat. Say 2 hours plus to get 4 showers.
- lots of hot water means you need big water tanks or regular running of the water maker.

Cheers
Dave

PS the narrowest width dual coil calorifier I could find was here www.penguineng.com
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Old 27-11-2012, 21:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie
We had a Dickerson diesel heater with the water heating coils inside the burner. And a 50 gal insulated water tank mounted higer then the heater. it then fed bus heaters in both the forward state room and the aft state room also the pilot house !! worked well in alaska in Ancorage in the winter !! Just saying threres some good things in old style stuff !!
Probably a silly question but are you talking about a hydronic heater or do you have a heating coil in the burner of a 'fireplace' style heater? So the heated water just rose convectively?

I'm also unfamiliar with the term calorifier. How is this different than a hotwater heater?

Thanks for the lively discussion. Any others with OL-60 experience?
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Old 27-11-2012, 21:35   #19
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

Calorifier - An apparatus used for the transfer of heat to water in a vessel by indirect means, the source of heat being contained within a pipe or coil immersed in the water. i.e. just a hot water tank with one or more coils in it to transfer the heat from the engine or diesel heater.

A heat exchanger is a device built for efficient heat transfer from one fluid to another, whether the fluids are separated by a solid wall so that they never mix, or the fluids are directly contacted. My one is a brazed plate heat exchanger.

After all that the heat from the diesel heater flows through a tube the size of a radiator hose to a radiator with a fan and so I heat the cabin air. All lovely in the cold of winter!
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Old 27-11-2012, 21:59   #20
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

A heating coil in the burner box of Dickerson diesel heater! And yes the water rose as heated water will! altho we used water and anti freeze in the system ! Its an old style system that lends itself to boat type heating !! The heater ran 24 - 7 and never gave us a minutes problem! The heated water had to have a pressure relife valve because the heat could reach 200 plus dregrees if the outside temp got above 36 or so. Worked for us for years in PNW in a 42 ft well insulated steel boat !
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:06   #21
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

We have an everhot hot water heat exchanger on our Webasto based hydronic system on our boat.

THere is a set of valves that select winter loop or summer loop. In winter mode the hotwater from the diesel heater passes through the everhot and thus on to the heaters in cabins and back to the webasto heater (and an expansion tank and a filter and a pump etc).

In summer mode the hot heating water just goes to the everhot heat exchanger and thus does not heat up the cabins.

THe time from start of system to heating the cabins is around 10 to 15 minutes depending on how cold everything is.

I've never timed how long it takes to come up to full operating temp in summer mode. Usually we just heat water on the stove for dishes (in the summer) rather than start the hydronic system. In the winter if the hydronic system is running of course hot water is ready all the time.

The everhot system is a heat exchanger that works quite well. Heat is transferred from the hydronic loop to the fresh water line as soon as the hydronic loop is hotter. In fact it can over heat your hot fresh water and scald you so be sure to put in a mixer to keep the hot water to something reasonable.

If you are tied to a dock with shore power and city water you can take showers all day long with this system. At least till your diesel runs out.

Off the dock and your limits are battery and fresh water.

You can get a second heat exchanger that is placed one side on the engine coolant and the other on the hydronic "heatant". THis allows the engine to keep the boat warm and make hot water using the hydronic system.

Our system was installed with little thought to where the cabin heat exchangers were placed. This hurt storage space because they were placed in the bottom of lockers just where you might want to place things. So do plan well if your system is not installed yet. I'll be moving all of them sooner or later. I've done 2 out of 8.

Use an AC pump to the hydronic water. Lasts longer than a DC pump. I installed a small (300 watt?) inverter to run the AC pump. THere is a master heat switch which powers the inverter as well as the webasto system.

Plumbing is 90 % PEX on our system. THis is OK but does present some routing issues that could have been handled better. Rubber hose designed for hydronic heating works well (Don't use radiatior hose). It should be insulated to that heat goes where you want it.

It took me a while to understand all that was going on. This system came with the boat without documentation.

Oh, on last thing. Make sure that your webasto exhaust does not blow on the Genoa sheets.....

Regards.

PS I'm in the Portland area if you want to come over and have a look at it.
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:24   #22
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

Quote:
by evm1024;
Our system was installed with little thought to where the cabin heat exchangers were placed. This hurt storage space because they were placed in the bottom of lockers just where you might want to place things. So do plan well if your system is not installed yet. I'll be moving all of them sooner or later. I've done 2 out of 8.
Where are you relocating the cabin heaters to?
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:27   #23
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
We have an everhot hot water heat exchanger on our Webasto based hydronic system on our boat.

THere is a set of valves that select winter loop or summer loop. In winter mode the hotwater from the diesel heater passes through the everhot and thus on to the heaters in cabins and back to the webasto heater (and an expansion tank and a filter and a pump etc).

In summer mode the hot heating water just goes to the everhot heat exchanger and thus does not heat up the cabins.

THe time from start of system to heating the cabins is around 10 to 15 minutes depending on how cold everything is.

I've never timed how long it takes to come up to full operating temp in summer mode. Usually we just heat water on the stove for dishes (in the summer) rather than start the hydronic system. In the winter if the hydronic system is running of course hot water is ready all the time.

The everhot system is a heat exchanger that works quite well. Heat is transferred from the hydronic loop to the fresh water line as soon as the hydronic loop is hotter. In fact it can over heat your hot fresh water and scald you so be sure to put in a mixer to keep the hot water to something reasonable.

If you are tied to a dock with shore power and city water you can take showers all day long with this system. At least till your diesel runs out.

Off the dock and your limits are battery and fresh water.

You can get a second heat exchanger that is placed one side on the engine coolant and the other on the hydronic "heatant". THis allows the engine to keep the boat warm and make hot water using the hydronic system.

Our system was installed with little thought to where the cabin heat exchangers were placed. This hurt storage space because they were placed in the bottom of lockers just where you might want to place things. So do plan well if your system is not installed yet. I'll be moving all of them sooner or later. I've done 2 out of 8.

Use an AC pump to the hydronic water. Lasts longer than a DC pump. I installed a small (300 watt?) inverter to run the AC pump. THere is a master heat switch which powers the inverter as well as the webasto system.

Plumbing is 90 % PEX on our system. THis is OK but does present some routing issues that could have been handled better. Rubber hose designed for hydronic heating works well (Don't use radiatior hose). It should be insulated to that heat goes where you want it.

It took me a while to understand all that was going on. This system came with the boat without documentation.

Oh, on last thing. Make sure that your webasto exhaust does not blow on the Genoa sheets.....

Regards.

PS I'm in the Portland area if you want to come over and have a look at it.


+1. Great description of the system and good advice.
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:39   #24
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

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Originally Posted by Stray-Cat View Post
For full time liveaboard use I do not recommend the Hurricane
Two friends boats that were used as liveaboards (a 42 foot Canoe cove and a small 40 ft Nordhaven) had these installed and they both had reliability issues with them within the first two years of instalation
I had a Hurricane system I installed myself on a previous boat and loved it. It was very reliable and the fellow who bought it from me continued to use it. On that Canoe Cove and Nordhavn, were they installed by the same company? Could have been installation issues.
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:40   #25
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Where are you relocating the cabin heaters to?
The biggest offenders are the ones that are mounted on the bottom of lockers just where you would put sea boots or a box of some sort.

These could be mounted on the underside of the shelf above and the PEX routed so as to minimize wasted space.

In some cases the heater core could be moved to another space and a duct run out of the way to the cabin to be heated.

Most of the cores were placed as they sit because of the bend radius of PEX. My thought on those is to run the PEX where straight runs are possible or where there is room for the bend radius. Where PEX presents a problem I think (tradeoffs, tradeoffs) I'll put a fitting and switch over to hydronic heater hose. The flexability of hose will allow the heater cores to be placed where space is best used while still allowing proper bleeding.

REgards
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Old 28-11-2012, 01:56   #26
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post

In some cases the heater core could be moved to another space and a duct run out of the way to the cabin to be heated.


Can be a good approach. In our installation we were replacing a forced air system. I found the already present heat ducts to be great pre made hose runs, and in some cases I kept the existing nice custom bronze vents (they look nice in the teak interior) and ran duct from a fan heater to them. Also installed one big defroster unit with a plenum box for defrosting the pilot house windows.
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Old 28-11-2012, 03:51   #27
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Re: Tankless diesel hotwater

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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
I had a Hurricane system I installed myself on a previous boat and loved it. It was very reliable and the fellow who bought it from me continued to use it. On that Canoe Cove and Nordhavn, were they installed by the same company? Could have been installation issues.
Issues were not installation related in these cases although a small coolant leak was found on the Nordhavn (that I repaired)
Philbrook's did one installation (they have an excellent reputation)
I am not sure who installed the other

You have to understand that a BC live-aboard uses these continuously for over 6 months at a time
The Kabola seems to be the only heater that will take that kind of usage

I only see failures in the high use applications ,the weekend and one month a year use boats don't have problems with Espar,Webasto,etc

Was your boat used as a full time liveaboard?
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