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Old 23-05-2016, 08:39   #16
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
"Never Heard of This"
Which is the benefit of Cruisers forum, you can learn new things.

Membrane manufacturers don't care about the pickling reagent damaging the insides of the water maker...water maker manufacturers do.

PG (Propylene Glycol) is a great pickling reagent for the membrane and it is very gentle on the water maker parts.

I recommend it for use in our water makers for long term pickling and have not had a single report of a membrane being pickled properly with PG having a problem.
I will admit that your post sparked my interests, so I did a little looking around today, and the only membrane manufacturer that allowed Glycol solutions to be used for pickling on Polyamide TFC membranes is Hydronautics using a mix of 10% Glycol with SMBS @1%. So I have to disagree with using Glycol for pickling or membrane storage. I can't say what SMBS does to your system, but using glycol for membrane storage is probably not good idea and I question it's ability to be used as a biocide. If there are issues with SMBS in your watermaker, then maybe it may be a good idea for your customers to remove the membrane for storage as is done regularly with larger systems as glycol tends to leave a bio layer behind on the membrane surface. Membranes (Cellulose Acetate) have been used for years to reprocess used Glycol, but TFC membranes that are found in SWRO systems have never been used in this process.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

http://50.244.15.10/techlib/General%...e_elements.pdf

http://www.membranes.com/docs/tsb/TSB118.pdf

A friend of mine just sent me this article that I found interesting as well..

http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answer...ransfer-system
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Old 23-05-2016, 09:16   #17
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Clean

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Originally Posted by JstaRebel View Post
So I have to disagree with using Glycol for pickling or membrane storage.
No problem to disagree, that's that internet chat forums are all about.
So will you give a warranty service on a failed water maker that followed your advice?

You are also placing your internet searching above the real world experience and data of two people Tellie and myself who have thousands, literally THOUSANDS of Water Makers and Membranes (10's of thousands of membranes) sold to happy clients around the world using them. We don't just make **** up. Now Tellie is also a much nicer guy than I am......so he may not want to type as freely as I do. But...I spend so much of my time busting cruise rumors that someone picked up online, I'm going to be a bit more forceful and not let it go.

We go through this dance all the time on the internet.

On one hand we have the word straight from two water maker manufactures, who provide Warranty on the membranes and water makers telling their customers (Spectra and Cruise RO) that PG is preferred for long term pickling and storage of their water maker and membrane. Our advice has a warranty cost to us if we give bum advice, real money out of our pocket, plus a damaged reputation.

Then on the other hand, we then have someone giving advice contrary to the advice of the water maker manufacturer based on his internet searching, after admitting he had never heard of such a thing before.

Look, this isn't a personal issue or attack.
JstaRebel could be the nicest guy around and have decades of knowledge in the Municipal and Industrial RO world. But with all due respect, giving advice contrary to the manufacturers is how cruise and internet rumors get started and I just have to call bullshit on that because it is a disservice to the Cruising Fleet. It would be totally different if JstaRebel was bringing some data or first hand experience to the table showing pickling results with Metabisulfite compared to PG, and comparing those to the experience of Tellie and Myself have seen over the years.
But come one...an internet search now trumps the manufacturers real life experience?
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Old 23-05-2016, 19:26   #18
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Clean

Once again I have to agree with Rich and his expert understanding and clarity of thought. I just can't agree more in his brilliant understanding and observational skills as he so eloquently states "Tellie is also a much nicer guy than I am"


See ya in Annapolis buddy.



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Old 24-05-2016, 00:56   #19
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Clean

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Originally Posted by Tbonem17 View Post
I spent about 10 minutes chatting with the spectra bloke at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show on the Gold Coast yesterday.
Turns out he's the manufacturer/ builder of Spectra Water makers at Ormeau here in Queensland.
I guess there's only one water maker using that name?
Anyway he was the nicest person to talk to and I couldn't believe he'd mind in the least answering your emails or phone calls helping out his customers.
Unfortunately I don't have his details on me but I will post them tomorrow.

Tony
Sorry people I was having a geriatric moment.
The Person I spoke to was from Stella Water makers not Spectra.
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Old 24-05-2016, 06:47   #20
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Cleanpp

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
No problem to disagree, that's that internet chat forums are all about.
So will you give a warranty service on a failed water maker that followed your advice?

You are also placing your internet searching above the real world experience and data of two people Tellie and myself who have thousands, literally THOUSANDS of Water Makers and Membranes (10's of thousands of membranes) sold to happy clients around the world using them. We don't just make **** up. Now Tellie is also a much nicer guy than I am......so he may not want to type as freely as I do. But...I spend so much of my time busting cruise rumors that someone picked up online, I'm going to be a bit more forceful and not let it go.

We go through this dance all the time on the internet.

On one hand we have the word straight from two water maker manufactures, who provide Warranty on the membranes and water makers telling their customers (Spectra and Cruise RO) that PG is preferred for long term pickling and storage of their water maker and membrane. Our advice has a warranty cost to us if we give bum advice, real money out of our pocket, plus a damaged reputation.

Then on the other hand, we then have someone giving advice contrary to the advice of the water maker manufacturer based on his internet searching, after admitting he had never heard of such a thing before.

Look, this isn't a personal issue or attack.
JstaRebel could be the nicest guy around and have decades of knowledge in the Municipal and Industrial RO world. But with all due respect, giving advice contrary to the manufacturers is how cruise and internet rumors get started and I just have to call bullshit on that because it is a disservice to the Cruising Fleet. It would be totally different if JstaRebel was bringing some data or first hand experience to the table showing pickling results with Metabisulfite compared to PG, and comparing those to the experience of Tellie and Myself have seen over the years.
But come one...an internet search now trumps the manufacturers real life experience?
I was simply having a discussion with you regarding the use of Glycol as a biocide for pickling membranes. I Did offer data from membrane manufacturers that I guess you passed on reading. I also noticed that you didn't offer up any data of your own. Years ago, Dialysis RO's used formldahyde on their systems to preserve them in between usage and although it is effective, I'm certainly not going to use the stuff because of the dangers associated with using it. Filmtec, which is the best and largest membrane manufacturer of RO membranes spells out that under 20% glycol can actually grow bugs in the membrane. The papers I posted are from membrane manufacturers, not my personal opinions and I know Spectra isn't rollng their own. Preserving membranes in any RO system needs to be done correctly, and I doubt anybody on here that owns Watermakers are checking the PH after preserving, or changing out their solutions as is recommended. I don't sell Watermakers nor do I profit from them in any way. We do large systems like Cubicoi on SXM or air-fin which supplies the entire island with water. A totally different animal, but membranes are membranes. I'm simply an engineer with 35 years experience in SWRO offering people my experience in properly purchasing and caring for their equipment. When it comes to RO systems, I've heard so many "newest, greatest" things come along in my field, but I never dive in head first without getting the whole story, and you have offered up nothing to support the usage of Glycol in your systems as far as membrane protection.
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Old 24-05-2016, 07:30   #21
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Re: Spectra Watermaker Filter Clean

I thought formaldehyde was still used in Dialysis membranes?
If not, what is? Curious as my Father was on Home Hemodialysis, he used a new membrane each time as Formaldehyde's use is insane, but is more profitable for the Dialysis center.

Gycol if not in high enough concentration will in fact grow "bugs", people who winterize their boats and RV's and try to save a buck find that out every year. But I have read a "how to" here that made it pretty plain that they were looking for pretty much a 100% solution, not 50-50 or something

Finally as has been stated, membranes are cheap, important yes, but relatively cheap, unless of course you were sucked into buying a proprietary machine, and in the case I'd assume you could change the pressure vessel and membrane over to a COTS one?
COTS being short for "Commercial Off The Shelf" I strive for COTS systems myself.
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