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Old 12-12-2014, 13:14   #31
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

I certainly don't have the technical expertise of Richard and others posting here but can contribute this.

I have a very similar system. About 10 cu ft with a freezer section about 2 cu ft that is a spillover to cool the refer section.

I'm running a BD50 compressor with a single Al evaporator formed into a box for the freezer. In 95 F weather I used under 60 amp hours per day, air cooled only.

I don't know if Skip's system is malfunctioning in some way, has a mismatch between the components or what but compared to my system performance something is seriously wrong.

The fact that I'm doing quite well with a fridge system same size and setup as Skip's but with a BD50 vs his larger BD80 that Seafrost claims is not adequate seems very wrong.
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Old 12-12-2014, 13:38   #32
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

Likewise, we have a 4 cu ft freezer with an aluminum evaporator plate spilling over to a 6 cu ft reefer using an air-cooled BD50 compressor. In the equatorial tropics, we use 50-60 Ahr/day, with the system running 50% of the time (it has an adaptive speed controller that purposefully shoots for 50% run time while adjusting the compressor speed to suite the cooling needed).

And the fact remains that Skip's previous single BD50 system worked just fine for his boxes.

Either the current Seafrost system is malfunctioning, or it was completely inappropriate for his needs. If the latter, I can't really see it being an appropriate system for any need, since everyone else's system operates better in every way.

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Old 12-12-2014, 15:03   #33
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

There are two possibilities here.
1. Skip has had something horrible happen to his insulation that would make a BD80 compressor incapable of handling the 10CF classic spillover system when a BD50 could.
Or
2. The SeaFrost system is malfunctioning.

We do 10CF classic spill over systems literally every week, including test box runs at 70 and 90 deg ambient temps and it works...the data and testimonials don't lie. So it has to be either 1 or 2 above.

Now here something that is probably hurting you Skip. I've known you for years online and have read almost every post you have made from the beginning, so I love you and your cruising and posting, sharing style. BUT it freaks a lot of people out....especially vendors that don't feel as comfortable as I do with what goes on online. So I'm just saying that some seeming lack of support could be out of fear of having the "dirty laundry" of a troubled unit being shared so openly online. I've spoken to vendors that tell me (and I am NOT saying SeaFrost is one of them) that once a client with a problem takes it online they stop providing support to that client and basically limit communication in a damage control mode. I've heard this from more than one vendor while standing around the boat shows killing time during a slow spell.

Vendors are scared to death of chat rooms, blogs and clients that have a large online following. I get it having had a blog while cruising with 1500 visitors per day (peanuts I know but it did earn me $150-$200/mo in Google ads). But all the marketing consultants alive will tell you, as a business Never to discuss any potential negative issue online...never put anything in writing that you think will hurt you on a blog or chat room. In fact a online marketing company we hired to help improve our organic google search results when people type in the word "water maker" found my personal blog and user profiles on cruising forum and other sites and told me to delete them all immediately! I was told it was all risk with no reward to say things....anything online these days. Well...Mr smart ass me told that guy to F-off and we fired him because I enjoy posting my rants and advice online and am not going to change who I am just so evil google will like me more.

OK...I know I'm drifting off topic, but the folks at SeaFrost could be more worried about your overly detailed postings all over the internet than they are about helping you fix the system....so they clam up rather than trying to help. Just something to consider from a long time follower of your adventures.

Like I said before if you had one of our systems with this horror story...we would send you a new one and get that one back to the shop for testing. I don't care is we lost every cent of profit we made on the original sale...its just how I do business. AND we have had CoolBlue units fail and embarrassing **** go wrong...our poop smells just like everyone elses so I'm not knocking SeaFrost in any way. What matters isn't that a company doesn't ever lay a pile on the lawn...its how they clean it up!

Bottom line...you have a problem still with that unit and need a refrigeration expert aboard to figure it out because I doubt your insulation suddenly went bad. Good luck my friend and even as a competitor to SeaFrost I'm rooting for them to figure out the problem and make it right. Randy here at Technautics and Cleave at SeaFrost are two of the old times icons in the marine refrigeration business and have forgotten more about marine refrigeration than most folks will ever know.
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Old 13-12-2014, 06:42   #34
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

Rich, interesting approach with Creative Marketing applying attitude using smoke and mirrors. It is true Skip does not understand the problem of how his system works and your Cool Blue little system is not the solution even if he were to buy two of them.
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Old 13-12-2014, 09:35   #35
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Rich, interesting approach with Creative Marketing applying attitude using smoke and mirrors. It is true Skip does not understand the problem of how his system works and your Cool Blue little system is not the solution even if he were to buy two of them.
Richard,
I have no idea what you are talking about or why you have decided to take such a bad attitude towards someone simply trying to help and offer advice, or maybe you are the only one allowed to offer advice on marine refrigeration? When I give advice and comment on refrigeration topics its because i'm some evil stelth marketing bastard but when you do it along with a comment to buy your book (which you do all the time and I think is fine) you are just trying to help right and not self promoting and marketing?

Your attack is disappointing and since we can and do build CoolBlue units with BD50s or any size compressor needed for the application your comments are not just insulting but technically incorrect as well. I've ignored your other snide comments about me and Technautics in other refrigeration threads but this goes too far. You can question the design, quality, and application all you want regarding the CoolBlue refrigeration system go right ahead and it wont bother me or the thousands of clients with our units cruising around the world, but when you start attacking me personally along with my integrity you have crossed the line my friend and I have to call bullshit and call you out on that.

When the DIY water makers started failing and then when they went out of business, I was helping those cruisers for free with no requirement they buy anything from me...zippo. As a fellow live aboard cruiser its what I do. I don't need to fish for clients in a thread about Skip's problems with SeaFrost, we are too busy as it is. I have also gone out of my way to say good things about SeaFrost so i'm not piling on...to the contrary. I have never tired to sell Skip one of my system or implied he should consider one of our systems as a replacement, you have not gotten that from me but from your grumpy attitude. Why in the world would he want to rip out a $4000 system and replace it...that would be nuts. What he needs to do and what I and others have advised him to do is to continue to work WITH SeaFrost and NOT against them to get his unit working.

If you make it to the Miami Show this year come by the Cruise RO Water and Technautics booth and say hello. I will be happy to show you that I'm not some diabolical internet guerilla marketing hack who sees every thread as a marketing oportunity but rather just a real life cruiser who cares more about helping other cruisers than I do about selling **** to them. Not needing to work gives your attitude towards work a completely different feeling and tone....OK....well maybe I view threads that I know something about as a nice diversion. After all, I did already retire and cast off cruising even if I managed to fail at retirement, just too booring. Just because I'm a marine gear pusher now doesn't mean I'm a whore...its not like I sell Radars or Chart Plotters for heavens sake...ha ha ha.
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Old 14-12-2014, 06:33   #36
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

I just came back from a month away from my boat leaving my "Cool Blue" Technautics freezer-refrig. sytem running on my one 100w solar panel & Ampair wind generator. I returned with my battery monitor reading 13.8 volts.

Two years ago my twenty year old "Cool Blue" stopped working well while I was in South Carolina. None of my trouble-shooting was helping. I packed my system inside a stryofoam cooler and cardboard packaging and sent it of California, but UPS manged to mangle it. I was sent back, in return, a replacement unit and paid a very fair price. On another occasion I recieved advice over the phone that resulted in me changing a Schrader valve for a couple of bucks. The guys that helped me with my SCAD Solo tank monitoring system are good, but there's no system on my boat that has been accompanied by better technical support than my Technautics "cool blue".
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Old 15-12-2014, 15:30   #37
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

Hudson Force, there has been no question about Randy’s after market support of his products. For the right application the Cool Blue unit does seem to operate with less amp-hours per day in small boxes. Cool Blue’s true advantage is its ability to store alternative surplus energy from wind, solar and water generators.

Back to the original problem of Skip’s refrigerator’s performance: Mobile refrigeration especially icebox conversion units are all different because of designs and each boat owner has his own expectations or acceptance for his system’s performance. We can only guess at what is wrong with Skips unit he reports the BD80s larger compressor does not perform as well or better than the older BD50 compressor. This BD80 compressor is limited to refrigerant Low Back Pressure applications because a wide range thermostatic expansion valve may damage compressor. I believe SeaFrost was smart in using a Evaporator Pressure Regulator after hearing of problems and concerns about BD80 compressors. One problem that Skip and maybe others have is the Evaporator Pressure Regulator (EPR) is set to a fixed evaporator Temperature/pressure range. Because evaporators are in series and located in freezer section the EPR was preset to desired evaporator/pressure of zero/6.5 Psi at valve, I assume this was desired temperature. It was a mistake for anyone to tamper with this valve without a way to measure evaporator temperature superheat. Refrigerant pressure and flow determines the amount of work done in evaporator.

System operating low pressure is controlled by the EPR and high liquid pressure is controlled by condenser’s cooling medium air or water. With Mobile refrigeration refrigerant condenser efficiency depends on cooling medium efficiency. Design cooling medium temperature used by most manufactures of mobile refrigeration standard day of 70 degrees F. If a unit is designed for normal conditions of 70 degree and air or water cooling ambient temperature increases to 80 degrees then daily amp-hrs consumed will increase by 40 %. Using again 70 degree standard temp and 60 degree ambient temps daily amp-hrs would decrease by 20% from what it was at 70 degrees. Skip I hope this explains why you see the difference in amp-hrs winter summer even in south Florida.

Skip, no one can tell you what you will see in your sight glass that is not familiar with this system’s design except the technician that set it up as well as type sight glass installed.

There are over one hundred components available for small 12 volt pleasure boat refrigerators. Creative advertising will try to guide you to believe many things like box size is not important or eutectic holding plates are better performers than standard evaporators or water cooling is more efficient than fan cooling or even electronic thermostats are more energy efficient than standard evaporator temperature snap action mechanical units

Skip, I know you feel that your insulation can not be questioned but over time insulation can lose R value for many reasons. Plate and line temperatures you provided strongly indicate plates are very near the equalize point for a 134a refrigeration system. With three evaporator plates freezer temp should be about 10 degrees warmer than plates. With this high of a Delta T between box and plates you are either drawing too much spillover to refrigerator area and or insulation has aged for some reason.

I do not believe there is a problem with the Sea Frost unit other than the first day temperature pull down is slower. Once box temperature is controlled by thermostat I do not think any other system with a BD size compressor system could improve refrigerator performance in your boat
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Old 15-12-2014, 16:15   #38
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
I do not believe there is a problem with the Sea Frost unit other than the first day temperature pull down is slower. Once box temperature is controlled by thermostat I do not think any other system with a BD size compressor system could improve refrigerator performance in your boat
Maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't his previous BD50 Frigoboat work just fine in the same box, with the same spillover, while providing better cooling and using less energy?

If so, then either something with the box has changed, or the Seafrost system is not designed or performing well.

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Old 15-12-2014, 18:36   #39
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

Colemj, Your theory might still be correct if it was not for the earlier troubles with Frigoboat’s progressive failure that began with what was believed to be low on refrigerant. Several months before Frigoboat system was replaced performance was not what it had been as line connector O rings were replaced believing refrigerant loss and refrigerant was replaced. After going through a period of trying to get refrigerant volume correct with help from others including Frigoboat US system. Excessive refrigerant needed to be added to achieve adequate cooling. There was still poor performance and poor compressor cooling.
Now after getting rid of the Frigoboat system and replacing it with a larger capacity unit performance is still poor. Evaporator and line temperatures now would indicate refrigeration unit is good.
The only thing to do now to confirm your or my theories is to test the heat conductivity of box’s insulation measuring delta T across insulation with thermometers. If temperature gain outside insulations surface area average is larger than 3 degrees F then R value of original urethane insulation six inches is no longer R30 or above Or what ever it was when Skip built the box.
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Old 16-12-2014, 06:33   #40
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

I get confused with Skip's problems. I thought his frigoboat problem was he burned out either the compressor or the keel cooler running it on the hard? Or his keel cooler disintegrated? Something like that?

Does sound like he needs to check his insulation to nail that shut before moving on elsewhere.

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Old 16-12-2014, 09:06   #41
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

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I get confused with Skip's problems. I thought his frigoboat problem was he burned out either the compressor or the keel cooler running it on the hard? Or his keel cooler disintegrated? Something like that?

Does sound like he needs to check his insulation to nail that shut before moving on elsewhere.

Mark


Hermedically sealed compressors large and small depend primarily on returning cool gas vapor for compressor heat removal. Water cooled refrigeration unit application engineers must avoid installations causing high compressor temperatures that over time can cause system failures. In Skips Frigoboat case and a few others material blockage of refrigerant flow finally could only be solved permanently by complete system replacement. When salesperson recommends a single compressor that is too small for a 10 cu ft spillover box in the tropics and the owner plans to operate a low temp freezer section it seems to guarantees a short 5 to 8 year compressor life.

Seawater temperatures approaching 90 degrees F 24 hours a day and a heavily loaded compressor operating at low temperature or operating a keel cooler while boat is out of the water is not going to produce a Danfoss BD compressor life of twenty plus years. Frigoboat’s web site now does offer several tips on refrigerant flow problems that Skip and others have tried and now on the web advises against running system when boat is out of the water. On Frigoboat new units sold in US they will install a filter to prevent viscous and solid material from blocking capillary tub. To improve excessive compressor temperature in tropical water installations and when boat is out of water they offer a second optional air cooled fan condenser to be installed in series with keel cooler.
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Old 16-12-2014, 09:54   #42
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
When salesperson recommends a single compressor that is too small for a 10 cu ft spillover box in the tropics and the owner plans to operate a low temp freezer section it seems to guarantees a short 5 to 8 year compressor life.

Seawater temperatures approaching 90 degrees F 24 hours a day and a heavily loaded compressor operating at low temperature or operating a keel cooler while boat is out of the water is not going to produce a Danfoss BD compressor life of twenty plus years.
We have a 4cf freezer with a 6cf spillover reefer. Our air-cooled BD50 is 9 years old with the past 6 years in the tropics - and has never needed any service work. Sisterships to ours have the same system, only older models, and are approaching 20yrs old.

These single compressor systems matched with these components do seem to work and last longer than 5-8 years. I don't have any indication that we are pushing ours to its limits or causing any damage. I mentioned earlier that it operates 50% of the time on mostly low speed.

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Old 16-12-2014, 11:03   #43
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

I'm no refrigeration expert but I do have a degree in heat transfer, and checking the insulation in Skip's box should be fairly easy.

1. Get a 20 lb bag of ice, and punch some holes in it so you can drain the water off.
2. Weigh the ice and put it in the freezer (which should be below 32F), then turn the refrigeration off.

3. Every 6 hours pull and drain the bag and weigh it again, until it is less than 5 lbs.

4. Keep track of the ambient temperature (TA) during the test.

The heat leakage through the insulation in BTU is equal to the pounds of ice loss times the latent heat of fusion for water, or 144 BTU/lb. This test is based on 32F, but if you are losing 2 lbs of ice per hour you probably have an insulation problem.

To figure the heat load in BTU/hr for a freezer operating temperature of 15 degrees, you would take the pounds of ice lost per hour and multiply it by

144*(TA-15)/(TA-32) or 201 for TA=75F.

In theory, if your compressor is rated at 300 BTU/hr, a one pound/hr loss of ice would be a 201 BTU/hr heat load, making it cycle at about 67%.

Happy melting.
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Old 16-12-2014, 12:51   #44
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

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We have a 4cf freezer with a 6cf spillover reefer. Our air-cooled BD50 is 9 years old with the past 6 years in the tropics - and has never needed any service work. Sisterships to ours have the same system, only older models, and are approaching 20yrs old.

These single compressor systems matched with these components do seem to work and last longer than 5-8 years. I don't have any indication that we are pushing ours to its limits or causing any damage. I mentioned earlier that it operates 50% of the time on mostly low speed.

Mark
Mark,
Under the right conditions these Danfoss BD compressors do not seem to have a limited service life. Some of the BD 2 have thirty year old compressors are still running. In your application the installation must be correct and compressor cooling is assisted by fan air supplementing heat disposal. Your unit probably has a large fan condenser coil and is either an Adler Barbour CU100 condensing unit or a Frigoboat Capri 50 condensing unit. If you are maintaining a 33 to 36 degree refrigerator and a zero to + 4 degrees freezer in Latitudes 20N at low compressor speed that is great. The fan cooled condensing units I built up 20 years ago were rated by coil manufacturer for a 300% overload and when sold for cruising in the tropics 80 Cfm fans were installed. In cold climates the Adler method of restricting air flow was used to keep liquid high pressure in an exceptable pressure/temperature range.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:07   #45
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Re: Skips new Seafrost poor performance problem

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Mark,
Under the right conditions these Danfoss BD compressors do not seem to have a limited service life. Some of the BD 2 have thirty year old compressors are still running. In your application the installation must be correct and compressor cooling is assisted by fan air supplementing heat disposal. Your unit probably has a large fan condenser coil and is either an Adler Barbour CU100 condensing unit or a Frigoboat Capri 50 condensing unit. If you are maintaining a 33 to 36 degree refrigerator and a zero to + 4 degrees freezer in Latitudes 20N at low compressor speed that is great. The fan cooled condensing units I built up 20 years ago were rated by coil manufacturer for a 300% overload and when sold for cruising in the tropics 80 Cfm fans were installed. In cold climates the Adler method of restricting air flow was used to keep liquid high pressure in an exceptable pressure/temperature range.
It is an AB CU100 with an active duct kit bringing air from another compartment in the boat. We keep the freezer at 9F and the reefer at 35F (thermostat settings). It has a variable speed controller that mostly runs at low speed when usage is average or light, but changes to higher speeds when we fill it up with warm stuff. I installed it myself, so I like to think the installation is correct!

We don't want to go to where we would need to restrict condenser airflow… We leave the cold weather stuff to you Floridians!

But my point in bringing up our system is that Skip described his system as similar sized, with similar insulation as ours. It would seem that having a BD80 with external cooling not keep up is a big flag. I also remember his Frigoboat working well for several years until the notorious plugging problems (BTW, we have numerous acquaintances with the same keel-cooled FB plugging problems, so I don't think Skip's was unusual).

Hopefully, Skip will do a controlled and definitive test of his insulation capacity and take that variable out. Right now, my suspicion is that there is a problem with some part of the SeaFrost unit or its installation.

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