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Old 20-09-2016, 06:07   #76
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

There might be some confusion between my definition of " long range cruising" and yours. Your fine if your always near a gas station. The Caribbean which is coastal cruising most trips are a day hop and, fuel is abundant
. Its a good solution for you. However just the leg from Bermuda to Azores is about 2k miles alone( your whole year of cruising) carrying an extra 7 + jugs gasoline for a month or 3 isn't exactly fun. Nor cheap. Gasoline is $8. A gal in Bermuda and beyond. In fact the only place we found affordable fuel was Gibraltar. perhaps I should have said your solution is great if coastal cruising or for those who don't mind an extra 7 or jugs of gas hanging around.
Still not the best choice for a long range cruiser. Still a great big Fuel suck! Sucky to carry the extra fuel, sucky to pay $8. Gal, sucky to refuel your 1gal tank mid Atlantic, sucky to have to set it all up of in day 2 of a 4 day storm and your low on water and need to set up your contraption. I could go on but won't. Again great for you. Not me. And I would venture to say if you did a survey on boats doing long range passages and remote places you'd a lot less rainmans.
As for then"whoosh" noise. You can barely hear The Clark pump cycling. Sometimes you have to put a hand on it just to feel it. I've seen dozens of systems running. And yet to see a really noisy properly installed and functioning unit.

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Old 20-09-2016, 06:40   #77
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Quote:
Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
. . .

Rainman cost = $4700
Ventura cost = $6200 (best price I could get a year ago)
Difference = $1500

I run my Rainman for 5 hours per week using 3.5L of petrol. The average cost of petrol where I'm cruising (Caribbean) is $1.12/L. Thats $3.92 per week. So...

$1500/$3.92 = 382 weeks
382/52 = 7.34 years before break even

Since I will need to return to land life for my children
I believe you have missed, by far, the biggest cost of the rainman and other AC generator powered watermakers.

3.5L/wk * 2.5kg CO2/L = 8.75kg of CO2/wk or 455kg (1003lbs) of CO2 pollution per year to maker water alone. we all need to change our way of thinking. we cannot just burn another litter... we're all in this together, for our children.

yes, i know this is nothing compared to driving to work, but every little bit helps. so if you are on the fence between making it work on solar or going the AC gen route, the choice is obvious. Do what YOU CAN!
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Old 20-09-2016, 07:11   #78
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

I think what the above few posts show perfectly well is that there is no such thing as the "Right Water Maker Choice" for all cruisers. I also don't know of a water maker Company that claims to be the one and only either. This isn't 1970 USSR where you have one choice of beans on the grocery shelf. Choices and options are a good thing.

At boat shows, I've sent clients down to the Spectra Booth and talked them out of my AC style of water maker when it was a poor fit for their plans and Tellie has hand walked folks over to me when the Spectra didn't make sense for their cruise plans. A good company is more concerned with the client getting the best fit for the client than forcing them into the sales template pitch.

No one would argue that a construction worker needs to ditch his 3/4 ton diesel truck for the same Prius car as a secretary commuting to work uses, two different approaches and neither is "wrong" for the application. There is also no need to call the truck driver an eco-terrorist or the Prius driver a tree hugger...can't we all get along?

I assume people know me, but it's also fair for Full Disclosure to say that I'm an advocate of the 120v AC approach, I make them and sell them. Dulcesuenos is a Spectra dealer, so of course he likes that approach, it's fair for everyone to know where the comments are coming from. That doesn't mean the comments are bogus or wrong, they are just different.

What matters is that you pick the water maker that works for YOU the way YOU cruise and want to outfit YOUR boat. Then once you do that, the other guy isn't an idiot, fool, or some type of boob if he picks a different solution for his boat and style of cruising.
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Old 20-09-2016, 07:43   #79
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
I think what the above few posts show perfectly well is that there is no such thing as the "Right Water Maker Choice" for all cruisers. I also don't know of a water maker Company that claims to be the one and only either. This isn't 1970 USSR where you have one choice of beans on the grocery shelf. At boat shows, I've sent clients down to the Spectra Booth and talked them out of my AC style of water maker when it was a poor fit for their plans and Tellie has hand walked folks over to me when the Spectra didn't make sense for their cruise plans.

No one would argue that a construction worker needs to ditch his 3/4 diesel truck for the same Prius car as a secretary commuting to work uses, two different approaches and neither is "wrong" for the application.

I assume people know me, but it's also fair for Full Disclosure to say that I'm an advocate of the 120v AC approach, I make them and sell them. Dulcesuenos is a Spectra dealer, so of course he likes that approach, it's fair for everyone to know where the comments are coming from. That doesn't mean they are wrong, it just is what it is.

What matters is that you pick the water maker that works for YOU the way YOU cruise and want to outfit your boat. Then once you do that, the other guy isn't an idiot, fool, or some type of boob if he picks a different solution for his boat and style of cruising.
Absolutely true! I have nothing against AC systems, . In certain cases I highly prefer a 12v system. Yes I have had a Honda 2000 on every boat I have owned but I have rarely used it save for when we are seeing 2+ days of overcast. I have friends who use a PUR katadyn 40 and for them it makes sense. If we had a different budget / a boat with LI ion batteries, always gas around or a bunch of different factors an AC system might make more sense to us.
Where we have been recently gasoline is sold mostly in empty glass liquor bottles. Its a big world out there lol.


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Old 20-09-2016, 08:28   #80
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Quote:
Originally Posted by zstine View Post
I believe you have missed, by far, the biggest cost of the rainman and other AC generator powered watermakers.

3.5L/wk * 2.5kg CO2/L = 8.75kg of CO2/wk or 455kg (1003lbs) of CO2 pollution per year to maker water alone. we all need to change our way of thinking. we cannot just burn another litter... we're all in this together, for our children.

yes, i know this is nothing compared to driving to work, but every little bit helps. so if you are on the fence between making it work on solar or going the AC gen route, the choice is obvious. Do what YOU CAN!
While I respect your comment... Solar panels and batteries are not carbon neutral. When you take into consideration the carbon cost to manufacture and ship panels and batteries, its quite shocking.

Although we haven't calculated out carbon footprint out cruising (I suspect its MUCH higher than most cruisers think. The carbon footprint to build a fiberglass boat must be astronomical). We have calculated our power and fuel usage compared to land life in Canada. We are currently using 10X less power and 6 times less fuel (not including natural gas for heating).

I don't feel bad about my 3.5L/week of fuel to make water!
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Old 21-09-2016, 06:55   #81
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Interesting comments above about installing your Rainman unit.

I’d say about half of our customers install their Rainman units. People that have followed our progress over the last few years may have noticed the subtle shift in our terminology from “portable” to “installation optional”. Sometimes it can be a partial installation. For example, if someone has our petrol/gasoline pressure supply unit, they may install and plumb in the RO portion of the system, but pull out the pressure supply unit when they use it (similar to a Honda generator).

Some customers will be unsure if they want to install their Rainman, so they run it portable initially, then think about a possible install at a later point in time.
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Old 01-10-2016, 20:39   #82
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

WOW! All these prices seem cheap... I have just been quoted 15,000 Euros for a 100l/hr Dessalator (all parts and installation, including thru hull)
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Old 01-10-2016, 20:51   #83
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickthesailor View Post
WOW! All these prices seem cheap... I have just been quoted 15,000 Euros for a 100l/hr Dessalator (all parts and installation, including thru hull)
100L/hr is a 26.4GPH, so that would be equivalent to our most popular water maker the SM30, which makes 33GPH and sells for $5250USD. Now that is just for the water maker, so add in through hull and installation costs out the door and you are looking at an additional $1500 to $2500 depending on the boat and what the install guy charges. So round on the high side and call it $7750USD.

Now something to keep in mind is that we are talking about a manual water maker without computer controls. You turn on the system and dial up the pressure, test the water and then turn a valve and direct it to you tank. There is no computer touch screen that interfaces with your Iphone with world wide web connectivity. Some people want that stuff...I know because I get asked for it at every Boat Show. I suspect that next week at the Annapolis Boat Show, I will get the question again and when I tell them I don't have those type of electronics they will frown and walk away giving me back the business card they picked up...



Some people are ok with the manual approach and those are our clients.
We do have an automatic fresh water flush option for $595 and a majority of our clients purchase that option so that they don't have to worry as much about keep up on the maintenance.
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Old 01-10-2016, 21:24   #84
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Hi,

Short of the thru hull and the automatic fresh water flush, I don't think there are any more bells and whistles on the Dessalator...

I am picking up a 2016 Lagoon 450 on Oct 16th. It has 4 water tanks totaling 700 l and I intend to change it over to a fresh water flush for all the heads, so the 100 l per hour seemed a bit low (I also like my showers)

The Lagoon dealer had suggested the Dessaltor, but the price caught my by surprise, and I had to politely decline.

I am just starting to look at what the options are, and I think Starry Horizons (FP Helia) had installed a Cruise RO, and liked it.

Regards, Rick
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Old 01-10-2016, 22:27   #85
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

I will say this, Rich (Boren) is as straight forward in person as he is in his posts. I was one of his potential customers years ago who recommended I check out other systems to compare my needs against what was then available on the market. He will bring a person 'up to speed' on the watermaker issues and then let them decide for themselves.

Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration

I *always* stop in to say hello when I'm at a boatshow because he left such a good impression on me, even though I'm not in the market for a watermaker!
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Old 02-10-2016, 00:33   #86
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

I cant dispute the logic. I found out the hard way..........we used to have an engine driven water maker (120 litres/hour) and after a few months you really notice the hours adding up on one motor, the constant belt adjustment, etc etc. The fuel consumption was tolerable but the engine noise was less so plus the additional maintainance and hours were not. We are now firmly in the Spectre camp. We also investigated (I forget the name now, and they might not be in business any more) a water maker from France which used a Yam 4hp engine, same as the outboard, and which came in two pieces with a reasonable output......Aqua something? I may have the facts mixed, tho'. I disregarded that for the exact same reasons you identify - carrying the extra fuel and the constant refuelling matter.
I still think that the Honda generator route is viable for some, dependent upon their requirements, but for us we prefer the 12v route - we like the simplicity, efficiency and reliability. We'll be sticking with Spectre for our next water maker when the time comes.
I have to doff my cap to SV Third Day though for his transparency ..... refreshingly honest about his mains powered unit, so respect is due to him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
There might be some confusion between my definition of " long range cruising" and yours. Your fine if your always near a gas station. The Caribbean which is coastal cruising most trips are a day hop and, fuel is abundant
. Its a good solution for you. However just the leg from Bermuda to Azores is about 2k miles alone( your whole year of cruising) carrying an extra 7 + jugs gasoline for a month or 3 isn't exactly fun. Nor cheap. Gasoline is $8. A gal in Bermuda and beyond. In fact the only place we found affordable fuel was Gibraltar. perhaps I should have said your solution is great if coastal cruising or for those who don't mind an extra 7 or jugs of gas hanging around.
Still not the best choice for a long range cruiser. Still a great big Fuel suck! Sucky to carry the extra fuel, sucky to pay $8. Gal, sucky to refuel your 1gal tank mid Atlantic, sucky to have to set it all up of in day 2 of a 4 day storm and your low on water and need to set up your contraption. I could go on but won't. Again great for you. Not me. And I would venture to say if you did a survey on boats doing long range passages and remote places you'd a lot less rainmans.
As for then"whoosh" noise. You can barely hear The Clark pump cycling. Sometimes you have to put a hand on it just to feel it. I've seen dozens of systems running. And yet to see a really noisy properly installed and functioning unit.

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Old 02-10-2016, 04:45   #87
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickthesailor View Post
Hi,

Short of the thru hull and the automatic fresh water flush, I don't think there are any more bells and whistles on the Dessalator...

I am picking up a 2016 Lagoon 450 on Oct 16th. It has 4 water tanks totaling 700 l and I intend to change it over to a fresh water flush for all the heads, so the 100 l per hour seemed a bit low (I also like my showers)

The Lagoon dealer had suggested the Dessaltor, but the price caught my by surprise, and I had to politely decline.

I am just starting to look at what the options are, and I think Starry Horizons (FP Helia) had installed a Cruise RO, and liked it.

Regards, Rick

If the choice were just between the two watermakers I would call Rich every time. All watermakers will need some maintenance and repairs eventually, it's just the nature of the boating beast. Weigh carefully the after sale service, many do not and live to really regret it. I won't knock other watermaker companies other than to say that there are good reasons I just won't work on some brands anymore. It just isn't worth the time and aggravation they cause. I still, after two months have a non-working Mutant Ninga Turtle Energy recovery type watermaker from another un-named company on my work bench. After five weeks of waiting I'm sure that part I ordered from over seas that is finally the right one will be here any day. After shipping overseas back and forth, language barriers, wrong parts, wrong advice from the parent company, weeks and weeks of putting off cruising, dock fees, car rentals, nasty letters back and forth, and a looming Hurricane, it might be a bit insensitive at this point to remind him of the great savings he made on the initial purchase.
Talk to Rich or myself personally. Though our advice might not sound as enticing as the guy down the dock who's only owned one watermaker in his life time, we really do have your best interest in mind.
We will both be at the Annapolis boat show this week. If you really want to have fun, get us both together after the show, ply us with a couple of Pain Killers each and then lets discuss watermakers.

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Old 02-10-2016, 04:56   #88
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

....and the openess/transparency is exactly why you guys that post on here with your products should be getting the business. Purchase cost is measurable but subsequant support is not and should not be underestimated.
My old engine driven water maker supplier suggested that he might be able to help if I brought the boat to him or else that I fly him to my boat (business class) and pay his expenses in a minimum 4 star hotel as he didnt stay on boats! Either option was more expensive than buying a new Spectre and that is precisely what I did. Odd that the supplier was super helpful until I had bought his product and then did not provide follow up support later beyond selling me more parts that I didnt actually need!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
If the choice were just between the two watermakers I would call Rich every time. All watermakers will need some maintenance and repairs eventually, it's just the nature of the boating beast. Weigh carefully the after sale service, many do not and live to really regret it. I won't knock other watermaker companies other than to say that there are good reasons I just won't work on some brands anymore. It just isn't worth the time and aggravation they cause. I still, after two months have a non-working Mutant Ninga Turtle Energy recovery type watermaker from another un-named company on my work bench. After five weeks of waiting I'm sure that part I ordered from over seas that is finally the right one will be here any day. After shipping overseas back and forth, language barriers, wrong parts, wrong advice from the parent company, weeks and weeks of putting off cruising, dock fees, car rentals, nasty letters back and forth, and a looming Hurricane, it might be a bit insensitive at this point to remind him of the great savings he made on the initial purchase.
Talk to Rich or myself personally. Though our advice might not sound as enticing as the guy down the dock who's only owned one watermaker in his life time, we really do have your best interest in mind.
We will both be at the Annapolis boat show this week. If you really want to have fun, get us both together after the show, ply us with a couple of Pain Killers each and then lets discuss watermakers.

Halden Marine Services – Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:14   #89
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

I was wondering if the AC units discussed here that run from a Honda 2000 would be able to be run through an inverter while motoring. I like to have versatility with the gear I have on board.
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:32   #90
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Re: Selecting A Water Maker-a Lesson Learned The Hard Way. Maybe This Will Help Some

I have been very impressed with some of the water maker suppliers who post on here and who I have either met or contacted. I have not had any reason to work with Tellie but strongly feel he is a really good resource for what he offers. He has lots of people who have been very happy with his support and installations.

I have me Rich and can't say enough good things about him, except, he sometimes comes across very abrupt. But, he is a straightshooter and that is just his style in delivering his info in a direct way. I may buy my next watermaker from him. I had a Technautics refrigeration system from the owner of Technautics before Rich. It was a beauty and worked flawlessly for me and I believe the new owner for over 15 years now.

I don't know anyone in particular who sales/supports Spectra but I have friends who love their watermakers from them. As several have noted above, it really depends on whether a DC or AC model best suits you provided all other specifics are the same.

Just some personal observations. In my book the BS side of the equation is very important, or the lack thereof. And the actual level of support you get after sale.
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