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Old 14-02-2014, 13:03   #1
TOM
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Sea Maker Watermaker.

Does any one have any exsperience with this watermaker .I like the price and i have a Honda 2kva.

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Old 14-02-2014, 14:05   #2
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Well, I don't have one (yet) but I would only buy that or the Spectra. I have seen the Cruise RO installed on a friends boat and it is a fine piece of gear.

Rich is a class act and I am sure he will comment at some point.
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Old 25-02-2014, 16:25   #3
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

If you are looking at Cruise RO, you should also consider ECHOTec. Echo’s modular machines are a tad more costly but are of higher quality overall and come with many sensible extras and safety features. Their customer service is known to be excellent. If budget permits an ECHOTec, search for ECHOTec on ebay. I saw a factory rebuild 30 GPH AC unit for a very reasonable price.
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Old 25-02-2014, 16:55   #4
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schaumburg View Post
If you are looking at Cruise RO, you should also consider ECHOTec. Echo’s modular machines are a tad more costly but are of higher quality overall and come with many sensible extras and safety features. Their customer service is known to be excellent. If budget permits an ECHOTec, search for ECHOTec on ebay. I saw a factory rebuild 30 GPH AC unit for a very reasonable price.
Having dealt with both companies and being familiar with both systems, I would like to know the specifics about what you find higher quality, sensible extras and safety features in the EchoTec over the CruiseRO. I will argue the customer service point with you - both are good, but Rich responds almost 24/7.

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Old 25-02-2014, 18:24   #5
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Having dealt with both companies and being familiar with both systems, I would like to know the specifics about what you find higher quality, sensible extras and safety features in the EchoTec over the CruiseRO. I will argue the customer service point with you - both are good, but Rich responds almost 24/7.

Mark

Agreed. When it comes to after sales service, SERVICE counts...big time.
I won't knock Ecotecs units, but if you are comparing these two watermakers and the difference was service I'd go with Rich Boren every time.
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Old 25-02-2014, 19:29   #6
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

I'm sitting here waiting to pick my daughter up from swim practice blushing from the nice comments about our water makers. Being a live aboard cruiser myself, my goal is to treat clients like they are floating next to me in an anchorage, because one day they just might be!

Just shoot me an email and I will be happy to send you a PDF copy of the manual and answer questions. Rich@CruiseROWater.com
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Old 26-02-2014, 20:45   #7
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

I certainly did not write Cruise RO provides a bad customer service, I wrote “ECHOTec’s customer service is known to be excellent”. In no way did I question CruiseRO’s after sales service, just felt to share a good deal for a good product I saw on eBay. I have dealt with ECHOTec over the past 10 years and purchased two watermakers from them. I met both ECHOTec owners at the boat show">Annapolis Boat show and in Trinidad a few times and they could not be nicer folks, hence, I recommend their products.

Anyhow, both Echo and Cruise get plenty good reviews for their support and who is service king may be arguable; the building quality of a machine is rather not. I simply give credit to the people who make tremendous efforts in research and development and I don’t expect differently priced watermakers to have equal features, so don’t see any problems in pointing out the quality differences.

Below, I copied some system features from the Echotec website, which is the source of my findings and also answers colemj's questions:



"Patented spring loaded automatic pressure regulators with single O-ring seal for constant flow and superior reliability vs. needle valves with packing.


ECHOTec pleated polyester filter cartridges have an effective filtration surface of 6 sq. ft. per 2½” x 9¾" element. They can filter 3 times more seawater than cartridges commonly supplied by most manufacturers and 10 times more water than string wound filter cartridges, offered with do-it-yourself type watermakers.


ECHOTec is the first yacht watermaker, equipped with a unique pH buffer element. This cartridge contains a mixture of minerals that correct pH only enough to reach a neutral equilibrium in order to protect metal fresh water tanks, heaters and fittings. As the water is slightly re-mineralized, this will improve the taste and also makes soap rinse off easily, resulting in up to 50% lower fresh water consumption.


ECHOTec AC and DC boost pumps are magnetic driven, have ceramic shafts, require no seals and have no metal parts in contact with seawater vs. commonly used bronze, brass or stainless pumps with easily corroding stainless shafts that often cause the mechanical shaft seals to fail.


Low voltage control circuitry with heavy duty magnetic relays for each motor versus high voltage motor switches close to seawater directly on the metal control panel.


Modular concept for space saving installation or super compact and self contained for fast and simple installations.


Field attachable high pressure hose fittings for clean do-it-yourself installations vs. standard supplied hose lengths with crimped fittings.


Custom build leak free O-ring sealed high pressure fittings vs. standard compression fittings.


Custom build (one piece) large radius 90 degree high pressure fittings connect directly to hoses and components for low flow restriction and ultimate corrosion resistance vs. multiple NPT adaptors with 90 degree standard elbows.


Custom engineered pressure vessels guarantied for life, built with glass fiber reinforced Vinyl Ester and stainless steel end plug components. No mix of metals, common with standard pressure vessels.


Custom O-ring sealed high pressure ports with threaded backing plates on all pressure vessels.


Premium efficiency high pressure pump motors are epoxy primed and polyurethane top coated vs. single component painted standard motors.


All ECHOTec high pressure pump / motor units are anti-vibration mounted with specially engineered soft vibration dampers. This feature dramatically reduces noise transfer into the hull."
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Old 26-02-2014, 21:32   #8
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schaumburg View Post
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG] I certainly did not write Cruise RO provides a bad customer service, I wrote “ECHOTec’s customer service is known to be excellent”. In no way did I question CruiseRO’s after sales service, just felt to share a good deal for a good product I saw on eBay. I have dealt with ECHOTec over the past 10 years and purchased two watermakers from them. I met both ECHOTec owners at the Annapolis Boat show and in Trinidad a few times and they could not be nicer folks, hence, I recommend their products.

Anyhow, both Echo and Cruise get plenty good reviews for their support and who is service king may be arguable; the building quality of a machine is rather not. I simply give credit to the people who make tremendous efforts in research and development and I don’t expect differently priced watermakers to have equal features, so don’t see any problems in pointing out the quality differences.

Below, I copied some system features from the Echotec website, which is the source of my findings and also answers colemj's questions:



"Patented spring loaded automatic pressure regulators with single O-ring seal for constant flow and superior reliability vs. needle valves with packing.


ECHOTec pleated polyester filter cartridges have an effective filtration surface of 6 sq. ft. per 2½” x 9¾" element. They can filter 3 times more seawater than cartridges commonly supplied by most manufacturers and 10 times more water than string wound filter cartridges, offered with do-it-yourself type watermakers.


ECHOTec is the first yacht watermaker, equipped with a unique pH buffer element. This cartridge contains a mixture of minerals that correct pH only enough to reach a neutral equilibrium in order to protect metal fresh water tanks, heaters and fittings. As the water is slightly re-mineralized, this will improve the taste and also makes soap rinse off easily, resulting in up to 50% lower fresh water consumption.


ECHOTec AC and DC boost pumps are magnetic driven, have ceramic shafts, require no seals and have no metal parts in contact with seawater vs. commonly used bronze, brass or stainless pumps with easily corroding stainless shafts that often cause the mechanical shaft seals to fail.


Low voltage control circuitry with heavy duty magnetic relays for each motor versus high voltage motor switches close to seawater directly on the metal control panel.


Modular concept for space saving installation or super compact and self contained for fast and simple installations.


Field attachable high pressure hose fittings for clean do-it-yourself installations vs. standard supplied hose lengths with crimped fittings.


Custom build leak free O-ring sealed high pressure fittings vs. standard compression fittings.


Custom build (one piece) large radius 90 degree high pressure fittings connect directly to hoses and components for low flow restriction and ultimate corrosion resistance vs. multiple NPT adaptors with 90 degree standard elbows.


Custom engineered pressure vessels guarantied for life, built with glass fiber reinforced Vinyl Ester and stainless steel end plug components. No mix of metals, common with standard pressure vessels.


Custom O-ring sealed high pressure ports with threaded backing plates on all pressure vessels.


Premium efficiency high pressure pump motors are epoxy primed and polyurethane top coated vs. single component painted standard motors.


All ECHOTec high pressure pump / motor units are anti-vibration mounted with specially engineered soft vibration dampers. This feature dramatically reduces noise transfer into the hull."


Thanks for the comments Schaumburg, I don’t think anyone was intending be negative to your comments, it’s one of the hard things about posting and reading what people write online vs standing next to them hearing and seeing them say it. It’s great that you posted the EchoTec bullet points because prospective clients need to see that good information so they can make the best buying decision for their cruising dollar.

Since colemj (Mark) asked what the quality differences were between Cruise RO an Echo and you posted the bullet point list, it’s fair for me to walk through them and comment on how Cruise RO stacks up because the implication is that for each positive listed in the bullet point for Echo, Cruise RO is on the opposite side of the scale, which isn’t the case. As the owner, designer, 7 day a week tech guy, and even builder when we get too busy, seeing how I think and approach things can be very useful to potential buyers. Some may think I’m crazy and nuts…other may agree with my approach.

First let me say this, Echo makes a great water maker. They are good people and I’ve NEVER said anything negative about their water makers, NEVER. The easiest way to walk through this is for me to just cut the bullet points in bold and then give my comment below. Some items will have little to no comment while other will need some elaboration. Here we go and my wife is already reading over my shoulder slapping my head saying “Rich…come to bed, stop playing on the internet again”! To do this right will take a little time, so I will complete the list and then do a follow-up post shortly.[/quote]
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Old 01-03-2014, 14:28   #9
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

It took me a few days to complete between the normal work stuff, but before folks start reading the below 2,717 words, I want to do two things first:

One:
Reiterate again that by commenting on EchoTec’s (Echo) bullet point list posted by Schaumburg, I am in no way intending to bad mouth, ding, or imply that the Echo water maker is anything but a quality unit or that the hard working, good folks at Echo don’t care as much about their customers as the folks at Cruise RO. Cruise RO has built their business and reputation not by talking bad about the competition, but by focusing on giving their clients what they believe is a great water maker choice for the cruising dollar, then backing that up with 7 day a week customer service. Every time you call, Skype, or email on a Saturday or Sunday or Tuesday at 9PM one of the two owners of Cruise RO will answer.

Two:
Give a few bullet points about the Cruise RO water maker.


· Straight from the owners/manufacturer sales, cutting out the typical marine dealer mark-ups saving you lots of cruising kitty money.



· The only water maker company to offer a 3 year full replacement warranty on the RO membrane compared to others that pro-rate their membrane warranty.



· Lowest cost consumables in the industry: 5 and 20 micron prefilters cost $7ea and Activated Carbon filter $7ea. Genuine DOW SW30-2540 replacement RO Membranes for only $187 while other charge $399, $499, or higher.


· The only 7 day a week customer service provided by the company owners! Every time you call, Skype, or email on a Saturday or Sunday or Tuesday at 9PM one of the two owners (Rich Boren or Charlie Hammel) of Cruise RO will answer during their waking hours.


· Cruise RO provides the manufacturer and manufacturer’s part number for all major system component compared to locking you into high priced replacements available only from one company down the road.


· The Cruise RO water makers do not have a single proprietary part that is only available from Cruise RO. This saves on the initial purchase price and makes long term maintenance and rebuilding easier and cheaper from parts available around the world.


· For cruisers without a Diesel Genset, the Cruise RO 20 and 30 gallon per hour water makers can be powered by a Honda EU2000 generator.



· Standard Push-to-Connect double O-ring connections on all of the low pressure fittings compared to hose clamps.


· Standard Included Boost pump compared to a price adder/creep.


· Standard Activated Carbon fresh water flushing assembly compared to a price adder/creep.


· Standard Dual stage prefiltration 5 and 20 micron


· No Warranty requirement mandating use of Cruise RO consumables.

Just as I commented on the Echo bullet points, the same can be done with the Cruise RO bullet points and I welcome the comments.

The Echo bullet points are in bold as posted by Schaumburg and my comments are posted below….need follow up, need clarification, think I’m crazy? Just let me know.


“Patented spring loaded automatic pressure regulators with single O-ring seal for constant flow and superior reliability vs. needle valves with packing.

Echo uses a true pressure regulating valve to control the system back pressure and Cruise RO uses a Swagelok brand static needle valve. Which one is better? Well in my opinion that depends on your application. In applications like engine driven water makers where changes in Engine RPM will change the high pressure pump flow rate and there-by change the system pressure, yes a true regulating valve is better (or more convenient) than a static needle valve. With the static needle valve, you will need to lock your engine RPM in at a constant speed while making water, while a true regulating valve will allow for changes in RPM while keeping the PSI on the system constant. Additionally, in DC driven units, where changes in input power voltage to the motor changes pump RPM like a VFD, and thus affects system pressure, yes, a true regulating valve is better (or more convenient) for the same reasons as the engine driven unit.

However, with AC driven motors that operate at a constant RPM unaffected by the incoming voltage or your diesel engine RPM, once the static needle valve is set to control 800PSI in the system the pressure doesn’t change because operationally the Hp pump flow rate doesn’t change. So in this application, do you really need to spend the extra dollars on a true regulating pressure valve or will a static needle valve fill the engineering need at a lower cost? Our testing and experience leads us to believe that using a static needle valve to control system back pressure to 800PSI is not cutting corners, but rather optimizing the system for proper performance while keeping price considerations in mind.

Here is a link to the Swagelok static needle valve that we use in our SM20 and SM30 water makers for you to check out.
</title> <meta name="keywords" content="" /> <meta name="description" content="Swagelok designs, manufactures, and delivers an expanding range of the highest quality valves, fittings, gauges, tubing and other fluid system products and solutions throu
This valve has a 5000PSI pressure rating and the insinuation that the valve’s packing is prone to leaking or that leaking is a concern with this valve is just bogus. We have not had a single Swagelok static needle valve failure to date and if we did, it would be covered by the Lifetime Warranty to the original purchaser of the water maker, that’s how confident we are in the valve!


“ECHOTec pleated polyester filter cartridges have an effective filtration surface of 6 sq. ft. per 2½” x 9¾" element. They can filter 3 times more seawater than cartridges commonly supplied by most manufacturers and 10 times more water than string wound filter cartridges, offered with do-it-yourself type watermakers.”


Good prefiltration is critical for long RO Membrane life. The prefilter elements supplied with Cruise RO water makers are also pleated polyester. Our website photos show string wound filters, which could explain where the confusion and bullet point came from. Unlike Echo, we provide both the 20 and 5 micron prefilter as standard equipment on our water makers. A single 5 micron prefilter is ok on lower production water makers, but high output water makers are processing much larger volume of raw sea water. Progressive dual stage filtration increases the time frame between prefilter changes and can help minimize the killer of high pressure pumps…the dreaded cavitation caused by insufficient sea water inlet flow.

To be fair, I believe Echo will include the dual prefilter if the client pays extra for the optional boost pump. High pressure pumps do not like to suck sea water into them or the system; they perform much better when fed with a positive supply of sea water. So in systems that don’t include a boost pump as standard equipment, adding the dual filtration can cause supply problems to the Hp pump. Cruise RO water makers come standard with not just the boost pump and dual prefiltration but another important feature, an Activated Carbon Fresh water flushing assembly. You must be able to fresh water flush your water maker since chlorine will damage and destroy your RO Membrane. Cruise RO feels it is not an optional item, but a must have.

“ECHOTec is the first yacht watermaker, equipped with a unique pH buffer element. This cartridge contains a mixture of minerals that correct pH only enough to reach a neutral equilibrium in order to protect metal fresh water tanks, heaters and fittings. As the water is slightly re-mineralized, this will improve the taste and also makes soap rinse off easily, resulting in up to 50% lower fresh water consumption.”

Absolutely, Echo is indeed the first “yacht water maker” to come standard with this feature and Cruise RO doesn’t offer it. Installing pH buffers on residential RO units is nothing new and since most residential RO systems use a similar technology, if pH buffering and remineralization is important in your buying decision, a quick web search will find cartridges that you can easily plumb into your water maker product water line at a cost of $20-$30 each that will do that for you. I’m not knocking this feature, I’m just not sure it’s justified in the cost difference between an Echo and Cruise RO, but that’s for the customer to decide.

“ECHOTec AC and DC boost pumps are magnetic driven, have ceramic shafts, require no seals and have no metal parts in contact with seawater vs. commonly used bronze, brass or stainless pumps with easily corroding stainless shafts that often cause the mechanical shaft seals to fail.”

It’s a little confusing to the customer that an optional item would be listed as an advantage over other water makers that do offer a boost pump as standard equipment included in their advertised price. Cruise RO’s standard boost pump has the advantage of being a self-priming pump, which can make the installation easier because it can be mounted as much as 5ft above the water line. Mechanical seals vs a mag-drive boost pump, is mag drive better? It certainly takes away the risks of a mechanical seal leak but in our experience seal leaks on our boost pumps have not been an issue and we are happy with the reliability of our standard boost pump. We do offer several optional types of centrifugal pumps based on the client’s needs and applications, but like other centrifugal pumps, they must be mounted below the water line. Chemical Magnetic Drive Pumps from March Pump


“Low voltage control circuitry with heavy duty magnetic relays for each motor versus high voltage motor switches close to seawater directly on the metal control panel.”

Cruise RO provides lighted on/off switches for the Hp pump and boost pump on the remote panel. Having not seen an Echo unit personally and finding no information in the downloadable online manual, it wouldn’t be right for me to comment on what I don’t know about, so I won’t.

What we do provide in our manual is detailed wiring instructions for clients wiring through our standard switches. But we also include a detailed wiring diagram for those that would like to install a $40 12v relay (they can buy from us or online) to pick up their 120/220v high pressure pump. We also put spare 12v switches in our bag-O-parts to make it an easy electrical wiring option for the client.

“Modular concept for space saving installation or super compact and self contained for fast and simple Installations.”

Cruise RO and Echo both are modular units.


Field attachable high pressure hose fittings for clean do-it-yourself installations vs. standard supplied hose lengths with crimped fittings.

Cruise RO does provide two standard length high pressure hoses for the two Hp runs: Hp Pump outlet to RO Pressure Vessel Inlet and then RO Pressure Vessel outlet to Remote panel inlet. The sizes we chose as standard (3ft and 5ft) work for 90% of our clients. For that 10% that need longer hoses, we handle that one of two ways. First, If the client knows in advance of shipping that he needs longer hoses for his installation (say a 7ft and 10ft) then we simply pull out the standard hoses and replace them with the size he needs. Second, if the client has the water maker shipped with the standard length hoses but then finds out his 3ft needs to be 9ft, he can ship the 3ft back and we send him a 9ft. We do charge for the longer lengths of Hp hose at $10/ft and of course doing things this way adds in some shipping delays. The reason we like to handle the Hp hose this way compared to field adjustable end fittings is that there is a zero chance for a client to make a mistake. The client puts the Hp hose on the connection point, turns it by hand to “hand tight”, and then gives it a ¼ rotation turn with the right size wrench, done.

I agree that this is not as convenient as a field adjustable Hp hose length but here is the reason we have decided to go this route. Over 95% of our water makers are sold directly to our cruiser customers for them to install. These are average Joe cruisers and many don’t have any experience in dealing with high pressure hoses or connections. If we were selling primarily through dealers that were in most cases doing the installations for the client, then I would have no problem with asking the installation expert to make up the Hp hose fittings. We want to make the installation process as easy and stress free as possible. I’m not knocking the self-adjustable Hp fittings; I’m just trying to take away as much installation stress as possible. I’m the one that answers our technical support line 7 days a week, so the easier I make things on the client; the easier it is on me…a win/win.

A quick note regarding Cruise RO Hp hoses being “crimped”. The swage point is multiple times stronger than the actual pressure rating on the hose itself.


“Custom build leak free O-ring sealed high pressure fittings vs. standard compression fittings.”

The standard Swagelock compression fittings used on Cruise RO water makers are the exact same fittings used on turbine engine high pressure fuel lines, where a leak would blow things and people up. They are the same fittings used in Chemical and Industrial plants around the world with replacements available worldwide from local Swagelok dealers. Cruise RO is so confident in the quality, that they offer a Lifetime Warranty to the original purchaser on all Swagelok SS Hp fittings! After reviewing the technical specs and application limits, I think most reasonable people will agree in their quality. A stainless to stainless compression seal good to in excess of 5000psi compared to an O-ring isn’t better or worse from a technical application. But from a cost perspective, buying an off the shelf Swagelok compression fitting helps Cruise RO’s goal of keeping the costs down while keeping quality up.
http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/we.../ms-01-140.pdf

“Custom build (one piece) large radius 90 degree high pressure fittings connect directly to hoses and components for low flow restriction and ultimate corrosion resistance vs. multiple NPT adaptors with 90 degree standard elbows.”

Echo uses custom built adapters and elbows, while Cruise RO uses industry standard Swagelok fittings as an off the shelf part to save costs. In my opinion, this difference is comparable to the true regulating valve vs static needle valve argument discussed above. I have no doubt whatsoever that the approach employed by Echo has worked well for them and I have nothing bad to say about their custom fabricated parts that cost more to manufacture than the off the shelf Swagelok fitting used by Cruise RO.
Regarding the flow restriction issues supposedly caused by the use of Swagelok fittings and standard elbows. An engineer could calculate and measure the flow difference between the two fittings. But how big is it and what does it do to the water maker’s performance? Does Cruise RO’s 20 gallon per hour unit make less than the comparable Echo or use more power due to the flow restriction? The answer is no. While there are pure engineering benefits, a cost benefit analysis doesn’t show that the flow restriction savings is worth the added cost of a custom made part costing more than an off the shelf industry standard part available worldwide. Some may disagree, and I have no problem with that, debates like this are ultimately settled in the marketplace through customer buying decisions.

“Custom engineered pressure vessels guarantied for life, built with glass fiber reinforced Vinyl Ester and stainless steel end plug components. No mix of metals, common with standard pressure vessels.”

Cruise RO also has a lifetime warranty on their custom engineered pressure vessels and anodized aluminum end plug fittings. Cruise RO does use SS fittings connecting to the anodized aluminum end plug, which the bullet point refers to as “No mix of metals”. Cruise RO applies Teflon tape to the SS Swagelok fitting threads prior to screwing into the aluminum end plugs to prevent metal to metal contact. The configuration of using anodized aluminum end plugs with SS fittings has been used for years in the water maker industry and although it has not been a source of failure, I agree with Echo that a SS to SS connection is indeed superior to aluminum to SS connection. +1 for Echo. Of course with a lifetime warranty, the customer is still protected from having to purchase a new pressure vessel or end plug assembly.

“Custom O-ring sealed high pressure ports with threaded backing plates on all pressure vessels.”

Cruise RO uses NPT fittings rather than O-ring seals for the Hp connections. Is the Cruise RO approach inferior in quality to a custom made O-ring fitting, I don’t think so, but this is a valid difference I’m just not sure is speaks to “lessor or greater quality”. The NPT Hp connections used on Cruise RO water makers are pressure rated at thousands of PSI above the pressure capable by the Hp pump. Custom made fittings and O-ring seals are always nice until you drop it in a bilge or it fails and you can’t replace it locally. That’s not at all a knock about the Echo approach; it’s just an illustration that a “flaw” (if you want to call it that) can be found in almost every system design or component choice for those looking to make such a list. Some of them are valid, while some I would argue is simply a “marketing” list.

“Premium efficiency high pressure pump motors are epoxy primed and polyurethane top coated vs. single component painted standard motors.”

The Lesson Wattsaver motor used in the Cruise RO SM20 and SM30 water makers are also high efficiency motors with a name plate power usage of 8.4Amps and you can review the specifications at this link: LEESON Electric Corporation - www.leeson.com
In a break from the water maker company pack, Cruise RO lists both the manufacturer and manufacturer’s model numbers for all of their major system components in their free to the public manual. It is my belief that giving all of this information openly in the manual, helps cruisers make educated buying decisions.


“All ECHOTec high pressure pump / motor units are anti-vibration mounted with specially engineered soft vibration dampers. This feature dramatically reduces noise transfer into the hull."

Cruise RO does not provide anti-vibration mounting feet for the pump and motor assembly. Is that a problem? The water maker installed on my Hudson Force 50, SV THIRD DAY, is mounted under the salon floor and the crew can sit in the salon watching a DVD without having to turn up the TV volume. Is the Hp pump and motor silent, certainly not, but most generators are louder than the Hp pump and motor. Key to a quite installation of the high pressure pump and motor assembly is selecting or preparing a solid base platform rather than a loose board that will act as a drum. Clients often place a rubber pad between the motor mount and base of for those concerned can always purchase some anti-vibration mounting feet online. You can review photos of how some of our clients mounted their high pressure pump and motor assemblies and in one of the photos you will see some mounting feet. Customer Feedback
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Old 01-03-2014, 15:25   #10
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Rich, thanks for the info.

I like generators for lots of reasons, but solar is for me.

How about a 12v or 24v system?
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Old 01-03-2014, 16:17   #11
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

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Originally Posted by u4ea32 View Post
Rich, thanks for the info.

I like generators for lots of reasons, but solar is for me.

How about a 12v or 24v system?
Like Echo, SK Water Makers, and a few others we can put a 12v or 24v motor onto a non-energy recovery Hp pump BUT...should you? Despite having sold a few, I don't believe the approach make sense and here is my thinking.

The advantage of a a 120v water maker is the high output using a simple lower cost brute force piston pump. Once you make the 12/24v decision I think you have to follow that design criteria through, which means it is critical to have an energy recovery pump, like Spectra. Folks that by a 30A, 40A, or 80A DC system (which are the numbers you are talking about to drive a non-energy recovery piston pump) with the though of powering it from their battery bank powered by wind and solar are usually depressed when they find out it just can't happen, the sales job doesn't work in the reality of cruising. Sure you can run it when underway with the alternator spinning but I have a 900AH battery bank and there is NO WAY I would dream of running a 30A load for an hour while cruising to make water off wind and solar alone.

A lot of cruisers that buy 120v water makers, like Cruise RO, use their generator to make water and charge batteries while at anchor and then while under way once their batteries are topped off use their 2000W inverter and high amp alternator to power the water maker. While this shouldn't be viewed as the primary powering soure, it does give you a back up for when the generator goes down as well.

If you are wanting a DC (12/24v) water maker, then in my opinion you need to buy a Spectra...without a doubt the best 12v water maker on the market today hands down. They have a lower fresh water production rate for comprobale cost, but you just can not beat the Spectra when it comes to energy efficiency and when going DC...energy efficiency is Key! Oh and they also have great customer service, so no worries there!
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Old 02-03-2014, 21:27   #12
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Yes Rich, most of your explanations make sense to me; basically it is about budget and what each individual feels is worth the extra cost. I think that my post could not have been more to the point: If you are looking at Cruise RO, you should also consider ECHOTec. Echo’s modular machines are a tad more costly but are of higher quality overall and come with many sensible extras and safety features. If budget permits an ECHOTec, there are very reasonably priced factory rebuilt ECHOTec units listed on eBay.

A few points I’d like to comment on:

I saw on Echo’s website that they offer 7 days a week customer service. Maybe you have inspired them?! Luckily, I never needed it.

I don’t know about any Echotec component that cannot be replaced with off the shelf products. Therefore, I assume the reason for custom building components is to increase product quality versus off the shelf parts rather than locking ECHOTec customers into buying proprietary spares. For me, this was always the ECHOTec advantage.

The high energy efficiency rate of Echotec DC watermakers greatly depends on every critical component in the system. Custom build (one single piece) large radius 90 degree high pressure fittings reduce flow restrictions to clearly measurable values. Manufacturers of energy recovery systems have led this way. However, the AC systems profit from the better corrosion resistance versus threaded fittings and the lower chance of leaks due to less seals in the system. Seals are done directly with the high pressure hose and with one O-ring directly to the pressure vessel. This eliminates multiple NPT and compression fittings. Well, yes this looks way more costly.

Cheaper is not always more economical. If a 6 ft² Echotec pre-filter cost $9.90 and a close to 4 ft² Watts filter does not cost $ 6.60 but $7.00, it is more costly and also requires more service effort. However, the dirt holding capacity of a pleated filter depends not only on the filtration surface. Who is interested in more details can find useful infomation on the Harmsco website. http://harmsco.com/pdf/Cartridges/CL...Cartridges.pdf

Cheaper is not always better. Obviously one can build a watermaker with a brass pressure washer relief valve connected to a 316 stainless pump head for the sake of cutting costs but I feel this approach may not be suitable for commercially offered products, processing corrosive seawater.

Off the shelf pH buffer cartridges available for domestic freshwater RO systems contain unsuitable minerals for treating seawater RO product water because pH, hardness and TDS values are completely different. The seawater RO mineral dispenser is not available off the shelf and is a proprietary ECHOTec standard feature. The Echotec website is very clear about that. A few larger manufacturers have most recently added pH post treatment to their optional equipment for yacht watermakers as it is a very useful feature.

Echo’s AC watermakers do not need a 12 VDC connection. The booster pump and the completely assembled, watertight low voltage control unit are powered off the main 110/220V supply.

ECHOTec pump/motor units are mounted on rails to equally distribute the component weight to purpose designed shock mounts. Using the motors’ base directly for supporting aftermarket shock mounts will provide poor results. With this approach, two shock mounts would have to work against their designed purpose (under tension) which unavoidably leads to premature failure. It also can become a safety concern when the pump unit becomes loose in heavy seas. Placing rubber between motor mount and mounting surface is not advisable as the fasteners will still transfer all vibration into the mounting surface. More rigid the surface, less vibration can be expected. However, even a 1” ply board makes a racket without shock mounts unless a non sound insulated generator overpowers the noise.

Echotec’s AC units were the first ever high-output watermakers, designed to operate on generators as small as 1300 and 2000 Watts. For this application, General Pumps custom builds crankshafts to ECHOTec’s requirments. Those new pump sizes are now available to everyone in the industry.

Building quality machines is simply impossible without using proprietary parts. ECHOTec pre-filter and flush filter brackets are custom fabricated from thick 316SS sheet instead of using off the shelf, lightweight aluminum brackets designed for static domestic installations. Watch standard brackets’ motion in heavy seas! Sea strainers and DC booster pumps are also supplied with rugged custom fabricated 316 stainless brackets.

Worldwide dealer net with customer service is questioned for cost savings? Obviously, the customer pays for it with the system purchase. But if you can get so many advantages for so little extra, it might as well be the best deal.

With regards to Rich’s opinion about DC systems, I copied my post #467 on Which Watermaker To Choose

Undoubtedly, power consumption is one of the key factors in choosing a suitable watermaker but not at all the only. Simplicity in operation, service and repair is what makes the big difference in the everyday cruisers life.
A good example is the ECHOTec 200/240/260-DML-1, one of the most energy efficient watermakers without recovery devise. It draws 21/28/39 amps at 12 Volt including feed pump for a generous production of 8.5/11/13 GPH.
For a couples freshwater need on a mid size boat, only one inexpensive additional solar panel is needed to compensate for the difference in power consumption when comparing with the most energy efficient recovery watermaker.
There are many opinions about which watermaker to choose but advanced conventional watermakers have definitely their place with long distance cruisers.

Reading through the threads, there are many cruisers comments on their practice of running engines or generators while operating DC recovery watermakers. Because this is actually done more often than not, efficiency becomes less important than high output and reliability. This scenario also suggests to consider high output belt driven watermakers.
Ideally, a DC watermaker should be powered from solar charge power available during the watermaker runs. However, if a relatively small solar array produces 20 amps per hour, a 40 amps / 13 GPH watermaker will only draw 20 amps per hour from the batteries and recharge within a bit more than the next hour.

If it were for energy efficiency only, I would go with an energy recovery watermaker. But there are other important factors that one has to consider when choosing the right watermaker.
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Old 02-03-2014, 21:46   #13
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schaumburg View Post
I saw on Echo’s website that they offer 7 days a week customer service. Maybe you have inspired them?!
I think so....goes to show that Competition is a good thing and the winner is the Cruiser that can get help on the weekend.

Thanks Schaumburg for the good information nicely presented, that's what makes Cruiser's Forum and other internet sites like this so valuable to
Cruisers and Cruisers in Planning, getting the informaiton to make the decision that is right for them.

In that...everyone wins!
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Old 02-03-2014, 22:23   #14
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Rich, I know you have designed and built, and still build water makers. I also know you have been a cruiser for quite a while. I followed your blog when you were down south and really enjoyed it. I saw your boat shortly after you came north at Port San Luis. You are a live aboard cruiser with a business servicing cruisers. Anyone on this forum or reading your blog knows that. This Schamburg lists himself as a cruiser in the Caribbean. Don't sound quite so to me. Sounds like a salesman for this echo watermaker, just my observation. If that is his business, he should so state.
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Old 02-03-2014, 22:44   #15
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Re: Sea Maker Watermaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravinracin View Post
Rich, I know you have designed and built, and still build water makers. I also know you have been a cruiser for quite a while. I followed your blog when you were down south and really enjoyed it. I saw your boat shortly after you came north at Port San Luis. You are a live aboard cruiser with a business servicing cruisers. Anyone on this forum or reading your blog knows that. This Schamburg lists himself as a cruiser in the Caribbean. Don't sound quite so to me. Sounds like a salesman for this echo watermaker, just my observation. If that is his business, he should so state.
Thanks for the kind words ravinracin, living aboard hasn't been the most enjoyable thing in the world this last week with the California rain, but on the bright side, I was reminded of where the leaks are hidden!

Considering that in schamburg's 9 total posts to date, 8 of them seem to be made promoting the Echo water maker or going after Tellie for talking about Spectra.
Someting easy to search for:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...archid=6295532

He is either the most loyal water maker customer of all time only mysteriously surfacing when Cruise RO seems to get mentioned on the Forum...or...well......you decide...but based on my filling PM and email box...you are not the only one to notice.

But hey, as I've said before I'm just a cruising bozo in quest of the next better taco.
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