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Old 23-07-2016, 18:44   #16
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

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Originally Posted by Laughing Buddha View Post
Thanks again Tellie for ringing in with your expertise regarding the MPC3000. What a kind offer to help sorting this whole system out--I'll take some of that for sure!

First, it is good to know that the board and the controller will operate on 12 - or 24 volts. I can defer working that subsystem, as you suggest it might be money down the "gurgler," and I can work hobby-engineering on it later. Also, when I price the pvc valves -- they are 1/2 the cost of a 12 volt ones, a manual system becomes more inviting.

So, my next order of business is to tackle the mechanicals, i.e., assess if the feed (vane) pump is functional.

I recall from some other advice given by Tellie here on the board; to rotate the fan on the top of the motor to see it it turns over. I've removed the MPC3000 board and pre-filters from the module, and spun the fan on top of the 24V motor. Success. It rotates, so unless the connector to the PROCON pump is broken or missing, I should have an operational motor, and vane pump, not to mention a new/unused spare, a number of clamps and blade connectors.

This brings me to a question of cost/benefit.

I can readily source a NEWMAR 12-24-25 up converter. Price ranges from about $600-$650 USD. There would be little added complexity in using it, but am reminded by my admiral; "Weight. Weight.Weight." She has a good point. If we don't ship to ourselves, we hand-carry. The Newmar Up-converter checks in at just over 4 pounds. The 24v DC motor at (just guessing here) at about 20 pounds! Then add the spares an extra PROCON pump, motor brushes, etc. She has a good point!

A pair of Shurflo 8008-943-839 pumps, fans, etc. might weigh in at 10 pounds. Cost wise they'd be 2/3 the cost of the up-converter.

Then, I'll have the 24v motor available for resale, with its PROCON pump, and a spares. I can gang a couple of batterys together to check the motor turns over, and check flow rates before selling that gear off. Doubt that would pay for the Shurflos, but is an offset, and that is a good thing.

As a point to consider, I guess my Clark Pump is a 10% unit? The SN on the back of the pump is -10. Would 2 Shurflo 8008s be sufficient? Could they be run as singles or just in tandem? That is sort of suggested on Celestialsailor's blog; Adventures of Joli' Elle: Inspired by my progress

It looks like my path is pointed to a dual Shurflo pump setup, with manual controls. Less complex, more modular approach to installation, and can be bone simple electronically, but involves valves and checklists - not an automatic system. But it would be a system that could be placed in available cabinetry, and not requre a lot of modification. I'll need a better setup/installation drawing than the one I previously posted.

Tellie, as you have time shipmate, could you post me a lead? Once I settle on this path, next order of business--order up some bits.

Again, any comments/thoughts/admonishments/encouragement gratefully accepted.


Cheers - Jim

I'm not yet giving up on the MPC3000, just moving along to a solution that I can guarantee will work -- electronic playtime can wait.
Hi Jim...the reason I did my system, the way I did, was first and foremost...cost and second simplicity. The way I see it is I have 70 gallon tank capacity. At most, I'm a double hander. At that, using water leisurely, I'm looking at 10 gallons of water a day, so around 5 days, I should be thinking of a refill. To replace the 50 gallons, I run the unit for approximately 4.5 hours at around 20 amps., if I remember correctly. So maybe when the wind slacks a little (usually at night). I can crank up the engine and burn the 2.0 gallons my engine uses in that time. My model is based on a conservative crossing from Mexico to the Marquesas in 30 days. That would be running the engine 5 times = 10 gal. of diesel. Also I have 300 watts of solar too.
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Old 23-07-2016, 18:52   #17
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
If you are seriously thinking of going with the two Shurflo pump option then I would scrap the whole electronic set up. Those electronics never played well with this type set up. Going the Shurflo pump route is going to be easier and more cost effective in the long run. So Keep the Clark pump, the membrane vessel, the Charcoal filter housing, and the two black high pressure pre-filter housings. You'll only need one for a five Micron pre-filter and you can keep the second for a spare. You don't need to pre-filters with your intended set up. You are basically putting together a Cape Horn Extreme and we only now use a single five Micron pre-filter for this system. Your Clark pump is a 10% pump so the dual pumps will work as well as running either individually will work as well. This set up will be the most energy efficient watermaker designed anywhere. If you get the pumps before you leave we will want to set one up to test the Clark pump to make sure there are no issues with it before you leave. You'll need the old pressure gauge to do this. If you don't have one it will be vital to get one before hand. The Cape Horn Extreme is the knock down toughest watermaker built, designed for vessels that were going to experience the harshest of conditions. All the Volvo boats have the Cape Horn Extreme installed on them. So you are heading down a good path.


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This is the set up I used thanx to Tellie. I made it modular as I had a 40" membrane to tuck away somewhere and needed a panel specially designed to fit snugly in the same neighborhood. It is currently down 4 1/2 feet in the port lazerette. As long as I don't gain anymore weight, I'll be able to get to all the filters (2), switches (2) and valves (1). Not a bad set up for a 35 ft. cruising boat. With a boat my size and all the gear, I look like the circus just came into town...
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Old 23-07-2016, 18:56   #18
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

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This is the set up I used thanx to Tellie. I made it modular as I had a 40" membrane to tuck away somewhere and needed a panel specially designed to fit snugly in the same neighborhood. It is currently down 4 1/2 feet in the port lazerette. As long as I don't gain anymore weight, I'll be able to get to all the filters (2), switches (2) and valves (1). Not a bad set up for a 35 ft. cruising boat. With a boat my size and all the gear, I look like the circus just came into town...

I looked at the pics you have on your site. Nice work, really nice work.


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Old 23-07-2016, 19:17   #19
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
I looked at the pics you have on your site. Nice work, really nice work.


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Thank you for the kind words Tellie. To show how far I have come, I'll remind you of our original conversation in a similar thread when I was about to attempt a 3 stage pressure on my engine or buy a used Pur 40. I see now, both would have been a mistake for what I wanted to do long term. I was so impressed with the Spectra, I whined my way into their Technician class. It was those photos that finally convinced them to let me in.
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Old 23-07-2016, 20:00   #20
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Thank you for the kind words Tellie. To show how far I have come, I'll remind you of our original conversation in a similar thread when I was about to attempt a 3 stage pressure on my engine or buy a used Pur 40. I see now, both would have been a mistake for what I wanted to do long term. I was so impressed with the Spectra, I whined my way into their Technician class. It was those photos that finally convinced them to let me in.

We are always looking for good Roving techs. CF member Dulcesuenos is a Dealer and Rover as well. It's tough keeping up with him, he's traveling all over the world right now with his wife. I guess you must have met Ray, Kyle, Chris, Annie, and the the rest of the gang while you were at the Rover class. Ray was just here in Florida as we just had our annual Spectra class last Saturday at my shop in Fort Lauderdale. We had about thirty people show up and a few were CF members from here. Looks like we may start having these twice a year now. Ren Chapman, the cameraman on the video below was there looking to build an Older Spectra as well. You've got my phone number, if you ever work on a Spectra and need any help, don't ever hesitate to call.

Best Regards
J.T.



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Old 25-07-2016, 07:02   #21
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

A recap of where I am on the rehab of my used Spectra (nee Newport 400 24V).
MPC3000 - Will function on 12V - or 24V. Good to know, but will defer testing/analysis/installation for now
I have a number of sensors and solenoids that will also become excess to requirements; Salinity Sensor, Pump stroke sensor, MPC3000 Display/Board
I have a spare PROCON Vane Pump and "tabs" These items are in New/VG condition, the PROCON moves freely and is like new/unused
There is a Spectra 24V motor and PROCON Vane Pump - spins freely (waiting a 24v check)
Following Tellie's advice to Reefmagnet last year:
Quote:
... direct drive pump. There is a mechanical connection between the motor and the feed pump. Take a small screw driver and try to rotate the cooling fan on top of the motor itself. If it turns fairly easy chances are good that the feed pump motor is working.
That was from this link; Spectra Watermaker downgrade? Did that - moves freely (I will apply power to confirm it functions - later.)
Look for many of these items to become available.

As a data acquisition "geek" I'll plan on keeping the 2 sensors located on the pre-filters, and would like to source a display for them. About 10 bucks for a 12v pressure/vacuum gauge - might be a player - at least worth a trial. They all tend to "trigger" at low voltage [typical might be 0.5v - 4.5v] . Could be a nice simple experiment. But easier still, I'll ask. QUESTION: Does anybody know what these signal values might be on the Spectra pre-filters and maybe a have a DC gauge recommendation?

On gauges: I'll want to source a Dwyer type flow meter for brine and product - digital is inviting - but not cheap-so forget that!
QUESTION: Do people find having dual flow gauges (one for brine and one for product) useful?

So, interm summary, I am heading towards the:
Quote:
"... most energy efficient watermaker designed anywhere. ...The Cape Horn Extreme is the knock down toughest watermaker built, designed for vessels that were going to experience the harshest of conditions." Tellie
WOW - that is exciting! Seems like I am following in Reefmagnet/celestialsailor's wake.

Next, I will need to source the 2 Shurflo pumps and associated 3-way valves, Dwyer flowmeter, TDS meter, and high pressure hose(s).
QUESTION: Any recommendations for a good source for 3-way L-trap valves? Been all over the Interweb and prices/quality vary widely. Hose at the local Parker shop? [I do have some HP hose onboard from the engine drive system-oh yeah maybe the TDS meter too.]

I do have the 200psi pressure gauge located on one of the acculumulators to check input pressure.
QUESTION: What is the input pressure and GPM flow required for the Clark Pump to reach desired output?
QUESTION: What does it mean, "It is a 10% pump"?
QUESTION: If the input pressure is met, is there any requirement for a high pressure gauge to measure Clark Pump output? Just monitor product quality and flow rate?

Speaking of Clark Pump, I am considering calling Spectra and getting an R.A. and send it in for a "check-up/re-man." Sounds like everyone that has, is satisfied with a near-as-new system. Just seems like a good investment and would provide some peace of mind. (Kind regards; tkiethlu)
QUESTION: Do/have people sent in their membrane housings into Spectra? Might be nice to check the end caps - or just buy spares.

BTW, I do have (onboard -- in Malaysia) another Spectra Membrane Vessel I picked up years ago for peanuts. Maybe I should consider adding it in series? Hmm, there is another twist for Tellie! Oh yeah, more parts to buy.
QUESTION: Would this "Cape Horn Extreme-like" setup support 2 40 inch membranes in series?

As I look at my inventory of bits and pieces, I see I have no spanner for the membrane vessel.
QUESTION: Which one does everyone use?



Again, any suggestions/recommendations gratefully accepted.

Cheers - Jim
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Old 25-07-2016, 07:37   #22
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Wow...you're really into this....good for you. I can't really answer many of your questions as i have only been working on mine for a few years and no one else I know in the field has any problems with them. But I'm sure when I relaunch in November, a few might come up with others I can help.
If it were me, here is what I would do. Call Spectra...
Tony
Tech Support
Spectra Watermakers
20 Mariposa Road
San Rafael, Ca 94901
p. 415-526-2780
f. 415-526-2787

Tony is a great guy and very helpful. Possibly, you could send the whole mess into them and get it revamped. It seemed to me that they do not support the MPC3000 but the MPC5000 is a direct replacement. Hope I'm remembering that correctly. The PROCON pump is controlled by the MPC3000/5000 to vary it's speed to regulate input pressure. I found that out when I wanted to go manual and Tony gave me that information and told me, I would be happier with the Surflo pumps which are modified especially for Spectra to accomplish a higher pressure. So I would guess those are proprietary to Spectra.
As far as the membrane wrench goes, I noticed the techs at Spectra used an Armstrong 34-234 spanner wrench (what you call a C-wrench). The pin on the end needs to be modified from a round .350" to a machined flat feature that is 90 degrees to the handle to at a dimension of .190". I found my wrench on ebay.
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Old 25-07-2016, 08:07   #23
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Wow...you're really into this....good for you. I can't really answer many of your questions as i have only been working on mine for a few years and no one else I know in the field has any problems with them. But I'm sure when I relaunch in November, a few might come up with others I can help.
If it were me, here is what I would do. Call Spectra...
Tony
Tech Support
Spectra Watermakers
20 Mariposa Road
San Rafael, Ca 94901
p. 415-526-2780
f. 415-526-2787

Tony is a great guy and very helpful. Possibly, you could send the whole mess into them and get it revamped. It seemed to me that they do not support the MPC3000 but the MPC5000 is a direct replacement. Hope I'm remembering that correctly. The PROCON pump is controlled by the MPC3000/5000 to vary it's speed to regulate input pressure. I found that out when I wanted to go manual and Tony gave me that information and told me, I would be happier with the Surflo pumps which are modified especially for Spectra to accomplish a higher pressure. So I would guess those are proprietary to Spectra.
As far as the membrane wrench goes, I noticed the techs at Spectra used an Armstrong 34-234 spanner wrench (what you call a C-wrench). The pin on the end needs to be modified from a round .350" to a machined flat feature that is 90 degrees to the handle to at a dimension of .190". I found my wrench on ebay.

Just a note, and I know you are trying to be helpful, but I would not recommend going to Spectra yet. That would be the most expensive route. First my good buddy Tony, who I helped along is no longer with Spectra. He is now in his dream job brewing beer and taking full advantage of the companies fringe benefits plan of all the beer you can drink. I say this as humbly as possible, usually when the techs at Spectra get stumped, my phone rings.

Give me until later today when I get back in and I'll cover everything above.
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Old 25-07-2016, 12:48   #24
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

FYI, on the membrane spanner, I made my own (out of immediate necessity) out of some 1" X 1/8" flat bar in the form of a "C" spanner. My unit is in progress of being installed as the boat is still undergoing refit. I purchased 2 X 3/4" "L" valves and 1 X 1/2" "L" valve to make my system manual, but have since decided not to valve the brine discharge as a compromise on need versus plumbing. Having said that, I'm short the mpc panel and solenoid valves, so may end up automating the unit down the track if I can get these at the right price, as a retrofit wouldn't be too difficult.

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Old 25-07-2016, 16:26   #25
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Reefmagnet -
Copy all that. Thanks for the valve tips. Personally I can't see a need for the brine valve. Can't ever recall - but its been 5 years since I made any RO product - ever thinking;
Quote:
Hey let me save some salt water - full of bugs and junk! Oh, I know, I could wipe down all my stainless and start a new polishing regime.
I think I'll be offering some of my MPC3000 bits so I'll keep you in mind if you feel like tossing a soldering iron at some work.

My original RO system- installed in '95 had a toggle switches on the panel for 12v solenoid valves. One diverted high pressure seawater to a washdown hose, bypassing the membrane. It was a wierd system, ran on 90V DC! Had a HP Triplex pump NMEA mount and came with a 90/12 volt alternator. I bet the DTDP - latching switch was worth a couple hundred bucks. Unfortunately it did a great job on the anchor - but the car wash wand only lasted a few seasons. I think I left it with some folks in Opua.

BTW - as an Ozzie mate asked me online - you a farmer? Seems like an early rising post from your timezone! Or you up late?

Cheers - Jim
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Old 25-07-2016, 18:28   #26
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

My missus is a nurse and i get up with her to ease her early morning suffering when she's on day shift lol

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Old 25-07-2016, 22:35   #27
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Buddha View Post
A recap of where I am on the rehab of my used Spectra (nee Newport 400 24V).

OK, This is where you get to listen to me now and hear me later.

As a data acquisition "geek" I'll plan on keeping the 2 sensors located on the pre-filters, and would like to source a display for them. About 10 bucks for a 12v pressure/vacuum gauge - might be a player - at least worth a trial. They all tend to "trigger" at low voltage [typical might be 0.5v - 4.5v] . Could be a nice simple experiment. But easier still, I'll ask. QUESTION: Does anybody know what these signal values might be on the Spectra pre-filters and maybe a have a DC gauge recommendation?

Scrape all of this. All newer Spectra Cape Horn Extremes use a single five Micron pre-filter. This is plumbed before the two feed pumps and is all the filtration you need. It is a clear housing so you can visually see when it is time to change the filter. Used the fifty Micron clear pre-filter housing you already have.

On gauges: I'll want to source a Dwyer type flow meter for brine and product - digital is inviting - but not cheap-so forget that!
QUESTION: Do people find having dual flow gauges (one for brine and one for product) useful?

Nope, all you need is a 0-20gph flow meter for the product water made. In the blue moon you'll ever need to know the brine flow amount a standard watch and a measured five gallon bucket will tell you all you'll need to know.

So, interm summary, I am heading towards the:
WOW - that is exciting! Seems like I am following in Reefmagnet/celestialsailor's wake.

Next, I will need to source the 2 Shurflo pumps and associated 3-way valves, Dwyer flowmeter, TDS meter A simple hand held meter is all you need, and high pressure hose(s). The only high pressure hose you'll need will be the two for the Clark pump to each end of the membrane vessel. From your original picture I can see them. They are the two SS tubes at the base of the feed pump module.


QUESTION: Any recommendations for a good source for 3-way L-trap valves? Been all over the Interweb and prices/quality vary widely. Hose at the local Parker shop? [I do have some HP hose onboard from the engine drive system-oh yeah maybe the TDS meter too.]

I do have the 200psi pressure gauge located on one of the acculumulators to check input pressure.
QUESTION: What is the input pressure and GPM flow required for the Clark Pump to reach desired output?
For the dual pump set up you are going to build the input pressures will vary from 8-110psi on each stroke of the Clark pump
QUESTION: What does it mean, "It is a 10% pump"? Though all Clark pumps look identical on the outside they are different on the inside. The 10% is the displacement figured by the diameter of the piston rod used to create the proper pressures dependent upon the input flow. There are 7%, 10%, 15%, and 20% Clark pumps. With a 10% pump you can use the two feed pump set up. If your pump were a 7% you could only use one feed pump.
QUESTION: If the input pressure is met, is there any requirement for a high pressure gauge to measure Clark Pump output? Just monitor product quality and flow rate? There is no need to measure the Calrk pump pressure because it is dependent upon the pressures it is fed from the feed pumps. The feed pump readings will tell you both that the pressures made by the feed pumps are right and that along with TDS and production will tell you that the Clark pump is working properly. The Clark pump is a self adjusting pressure pump. There is no need to adjust pressures depending upon salinity and temperature of the input water. This is the only watermaker that can run from warm salt water toi fridged salt water and right up into a fresh water lake without ever adjusting pressures and not causing damage to the membrane or system.

Speaking of Clark Pump, I am considering calling Spectra and getting an R.A. and send it in for a "check-up/re-man." Sounds like everyone that has, is satisfied with a near-as-new system. Just seems like a good investment and would provide some peace of mind. (Kind regards; tkiethlu) Again, listen to me grasshopper and remember me with a truly fine bottle of Rum from some exotic place. Get the feed pumps together first and lets test this Clark pump using one of the feed pumps. I'll explain the simple plumbing set up to do this once you have the parts n place. This way YOU can test the Clark pump and find out what is going on with it. I will tell you what direction to go in then and save you a lot of money (Remember the key words here are "Fine Rum" and "Exotic place")
QUESTION: Do/have people sent in their membrane housings into Spectra? Might be nice to check the end caps - or just buy spares. We will test these at the same time we test the Clark pump

BTW, I do have (onboard -- in Malaysia) another Spectra Membrane Vessel I picked up years ago for peanuts. Maybe I should consider adding it in series? Hmm, there is another twist for Tellie! Oh yeah, more parts to buy.
QUESTION: Would this "Cape Horn Extreme-like" setup support 2 40 inch membranes in series? No it will not. It is designed to be the most energy efficient watermaker built, it is, so don't mess with years of learnin.

As I look at my inventory of bits and pieces, I see I have no spanner for the membrane vessel.
QUESTION: Which one does everyone use?





Again, any suggestions/recommendations gratefully accepted.

This one....
OEM/Oil filter pliers 25320- Read3Reviews onOEM #25320


Stick with me here Jim, I'll take good care of you. I promise, I've done this a time or two before.

Cheers - Jim

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Old 27-07-2016, 05:25   #28
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

A Quick note or two.

Tellie - Thanks for the encouragement. Your favorite libation is well earned and will be provided.

Reefmagnet - you've got mail.

I'm waiting on the big brown truck to bring me the pumps. Should be today/tomorrow. I did get to Harbor Freight and pick up the requisite oil filter tool. Quality looks good and well worth the 8 bucks I spent. Although you can never go in and get just one thing! Guess I lack tool shopping discipline.

I used it to open the membrane housing, and voila,there is a membrane in there. No good I'm sure, but may serve as an dummy for testing when the time comes. Just wonder if I should flood/flush it to make sure it will still pass water and not be too much back pressure on the Clark Pump.

Rereading the Cape Horn Extreme Installation guide for pointers, seems they'd supply 5/8 inch hose. Is that the recommended size? Bet it must be pressure rated.
Obviously its the 1/4" black tube for product. Guess 1/2" for reject/brine?

Had a bit of time so made a color crayon drawing of the system as I understand the set up. Hope I'm not rushing things. Seems to make little sense to plumb fresh/tank to the "bucket." Just fill from the tap - much simpler.




I'll advise when the pumps come in.

Cheers - Jim
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Old 27-07-2016, 07:11   #29
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Time for Show and Tell and ask some more questions. Went through the spare parts I got with the Newport.

There are a number of S/S fittings for the membrane, some elbows etc in S/S and nylon. A complete Procon vane pump - new, with several "bronze blades," circlips, and clamps to mount on the motor.

These items were in a Ziploc bag. I've identified all but 2 from the Clark Pump diagrams. There are no O-rings, so I suspect the pump might have been serviced and O-rings replaced? Or are they available locally and not purchased by PO?




There is a fitting on the end of a 5/8 HP hose. I suspect that is a check valve that fits into (feeds) the Clark Pump.

Any answers to the 3 mystery bits would be appreciated.

TIA.

Cheers - Jim
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Old 27-07-2016, 20:59   #30
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Re: Rehabilitating and (re)Installing a Spectra Newport 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Buddha View Post
Time for Show and Tell and ask some more questions. Went through the spare parts I got with the Newport.

There are a number of S/S fittings for the membrane, some elbows etc in S/S and nylon. A complete Procon vane pump - new, with several "bronze blades," circlips, and clamps to mount on the motor.

These items were in a Ziploc bag. I've identified all but 2 from the Clark Pump diagrams. There are no O-rings, so I suspect the pump might have been serviced and O-rings replaced? Or are they available locally and not purchased by PO?




There is a fitting on the end of a 5/8 HP hose. I suspect that is a check valve that fits into (feeds) the Clark Pump.

Any answers to the 3 mystery bits would be appreciated.

TIA.

Cheers - Jim
The two check valves wrapped in plastic are for another system. The other part with the three question marks is an annular ring removal tool. The two annular rings and spool look like new ones, keep them. The pilot spool, keep it. There is only one pilot valve pin, there should be two. The check valve look new but they are missing their seat washers and springs, one for each. The check valve retainers I can't tell if they are used or new but they don't fail so keep them. Keep the pressure relief valve.

The check valve on the end of the 5/8" hose is for a quick disconnect fitting that should be located on the Clark pumps brine discharge port.

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